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The Problem with "Public service announcement for P+ owners" Threads

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by lolachampcar, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    We have yet another thread about rear tire wear on the Model S. This time it purports to warn people about the P+ package in a Public Service fashion.

    It is indeed a public service on forums like this to share information. It is a bit of a disservice to speak of lots of other threads on the subject then provide but one view of the issue. It can lead some who do not take the time to digest the other threads to come to the conclusion that the OP has accurately summed up the issue.

    Some people have high wear on MS rear tires.
    Other people do not.
    There is a thread dedicated simply to collecting MS owner's experience on tire wear so that the reader can form their own opinion.

    There is a lot of camber in the rear suspension of MS.
    Air suspension cars carry more rear camber because they use the same suspension geometry as coil spring cars but they ride lower and thus are further up the "camber gain" curve.
    Tesla came out with some smaller diameter bolts for the upper rear suspension link and use the bolt slop to move cars that are outside Tesla's specification into Tesla's specification.
    Tesla's specification allows for around -2 degrees of negative camber in the rear which some, including myself, feel is a lot. I say this as the coil spring cars have around -1.2 and seem to do just fine.

    Tesla engineers chose to not have two different upper links for the coil and air suspension cars and chose to not provide for rear camber adjustment.

    Some people are getting good range and some are not. This, by definition, says that something is going on but simply falls short of laying all the blame at Tesla's feet.

    Lastly, most everyone at Tesla is well intentioned but very often you will get incorrect information from the service centers. In a few cases, I've have gotten the feeling that the troops fill in the gaps when corporate has not provided sufficiently clear information on a subject.


    So, is there good reason to read "Public Service" threads with simplified summary statements on problems, sure. Should you take the next step if you are concerned and read the more detailed information, absolutely.

    Lastly, the real failure here is that of Tesla Engineering to do a now famous Tesla Blog Post on this subject. The Pilots (Tesla uses the expensive ones) are over $500 each. Tesla Engineering should have significantly more, and more accurate, information than that contained in forum based experience surveys. It is also their product thus I feel the real failure here is Tesla's relative silence on the issue.

    Now watch Tesla Engineering do a blog post where they say 4000 miles on P+ rear tires is acceptable. If they do, I'll come back here and eat my words.
     
  2. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    Someone should tweet about this to Elon...
     
  3. zwede

    zwede 2013 P85+

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    Small correction: The Service Centers has 265/35-21 Michelin PS2 for $440.

    Also, besides the negative camber that we can't do much about, many cars came from the factory with (incorrect) rear toe-out. Setting the rear toe to spec decreases wear quite a bit.
     
  4. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Yes, mine had the toe out problem, and destroyed the tires in short order. Worse, I had rotated them so all four were toast. Tesla did not admit any responsibility for this, and I paid for replacement. I didn't make a big deal about it at the time, but perhaps I should have.

    Now that the problem has been corrected the car is more stable and the tires are wearing much better.
     
  5. KOL2000

    KOL2000 Member

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    Thanks for highlighting this issue Lola.

    I forwarded this thread to Jerome. This is not fair and not in the Tesla spirit about being open and honest when something is wrong. And it certainly isn't helping the environment to change the tires out every 3 months!!

    i certainly hope they fix this issue and the endless drivetrain replacements before my model x arrives...
     
  6. DRS1

    DRS1 Banned

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    +1000 ^^^^

    Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed information. As I examine the TCO of Tesla for my business use, I was reading with interest the wear on Michelins Primacy, Goodyears and the Pilots. All across the board. In the end, the Primacy should last over 50k miles with mix of highway, and no burnouts.
     
  7. DRS1

    DRS1 Banned

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    ^^^ thank you for toe heads up.
     
  8. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    I do not have hard evidence for the following statement; it is simply my gut feel. Anyone that can add personal experience here, please do so.

    I suspect the toe out issue was a learning experience from transport. Perhaps some transport trucks were securing MS using over the tire strapping or otherwise attaching to the rear wheels and ratcheting them down from a toe out angle. I know of other instances where transportation has corrupted alignment. Tesla seems to have quietly identified and corrected this issue. They have taken responsibility for it with some owners and not with others providing yet another example of a young and inconsistent service organization.

    Thanks for the heads up on the current Pilot pricing. The last time I looked on the Tire Rack they were over $500 at which point I moved to the Super Sports and stopped checking the OEM fitment pricing.
     
  9. DRS1

    DRS1 Banned

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    I believe your "gut" is dead on.

    With the camber and toe so far off on many MS, I bet they lose some mileage per KWH too. Scrubbing those tires off in 4-5k uses energy. :)
     
  10. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Alignment change during transport is not unusual. Happens all the time. Then add that the Tesla SC personnel are mechanics and not alignment specialists, camber is not adjustable (sort of fixed with the bolts, but real adjustment would be better), there were some problems with the specs in some of the alignment machines, and alignment machines can get out of calibration easily and you have a recipe for rapid tire wear.

    It took three tries for my local SC to get it close, and cost me one set of 19" tires.
     
  11. Alysashley79

    Alysashley79 Member

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    I've actually had a service tech at tesla tell me to put notes all over my car telling them NOT to align my car and ask to have it done at an actual tire place. The service department us fantastic BUT the alignment is where they lack. I have a P and not a P+ but after having my inverter replaced had a heck of a time getting the alignment back in place properly. They managed to fix it, but I did have my tire guy check it to make sure it was ok last time they rotated.
     
  12. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    That seems to be a SC by SC thing as a couple of the guys/gals at the West Palm Beach SC really know their stuff on the alignment side. Not making excuses but it is tough to poach a full competent service center's worth of mechanics from local shops and dealers. I think about all the competent mechanics I have run into over the years at dealers and it is a short thought exercise :)
     
  13. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Well, traditionally auto mechanic's schools spend 90% of the time on rebuilding and maintaining ICEs and 10% on the rest of the car. It's not surprising that the average mechanic doesn't know much about alignment or tires--it's just not in the job description. At dealers, often the alignment is given to second most junior person (the most junior person gets to mount the tires).

    Although the folks are generally great at my local SC, it took them three times to get the alignment to where it's "just okay".
     
  14. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    Before Tesla had a permanent facility here in Phoenix, they sent my car to Schumacher European in Scottsdale for alignment after my first drive unit replacement. Schumacher screwed up the alignment so badly that Tesla sent my car back three times. I posted a negative review on Yelp, to which one of the GMs of Schumacher called me and tried to strong arm me into removing my review.

    Once Tesla service moved to their permanent facility with their own alignment bench, they performed an alignment on my car to absolute perfection. I would expect every Tesla service center to provide excellent alignments for their cars. If they don't, you need to complain to the regional and/or Jerome Guillen to ensure a consistent and accurate alignment experience.
     

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