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Time of Use Power Shifting for Powerwall 2

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zanary

zanary

Active Member
Jan 25, 2017
1,700
1,904
SF Bay Area (East Bay), CA
#1
I've been hearing conflicting pieces of information. I have Quantity 2 Powerwall getting installed on Wednesday next week. I live in a townhouse complex, so no Solar right now (maybe in the future). I wanted the Powerwall 2 because I currently am on EV-A because of my Model S.

What I want to do is to charge the two Powerwall 2 between 11pm and 6am @ $0.125 and use it throughout the day. My average daily usage is around 14kw, so that's why I went with two Powerwall.

I'm hearing that even with the latest firmware for the Powerwall, that Tesla does not yet support Time of Use Power Shifting, and right now all your an do is do whole home backup.

Is this true? All of the online documentation and the events they held at the factory in Fremont, indicated that we could do Time of Use Power Shifting.

I've tried searching in this group, but I'm seeing old posting that say the same thing, that it is supported by the hardware, but I can't find anyone WITHOUT solar who is doing this.

Can any exiting Powerwall user confirm this?

Note: When I run through my calculations based on PG&E web site for daily usage, I'm saving over 50% of my bill because during daytime hours we're paying upwards of $0.40/kwh, and with the Time of Use Power Shifting, I'll be consume stored energy at $0.125/kwh.

Note: We have AC, but we barely used it. The few days we do use it, we use around 20kwh per day, so two Powerwall will handle that.

Note: All the numbers above exclude the Model S because my Powerwall will be off grid, and NOT connected to the power walls (or that's my plan)
 
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#3
My understanding is that you can do it by manually changing the settings multiple times a day.

Put it in self-consume mode, with a low reserve %, in the morning to power you through the day, and then switch it to backup only mode, with a high reserve %, when off-peak time starts so it recharges. So yeah, PIA until Tesla adds the functionality natively.
 
#4
dutchinchicago said:
I would try the chat function on the Tesla energy web site. I had a more complex question and they did a good job of answering my question.
Click to expand...

Experts don't know that level of detail. I tried the Chat feature with two different "experts" and they had no clue. Told me I need to ask my sales representative that question. I'm guessing their "experts" are only able to discuss high level marketing data, and nothing technical, or too deep.

MP3Mike said:
My understanding is that you can do it by manually changing the settings multiple times a day.

Put it in self-consume mode, with a low reserve %, in the morning to power you through the day, and then switch it to backup only mode, with a high reserve %, when off-peak time starts so it recharges. So yeah, PIA until Tesla adds the functionality natively.
Click to expand...

Well the good news is that the FAQ says that the update to support "Time of use Load Shifting" is coming around the end of the year, and this was also confirmed by my scheduling coordinates for this Wednesdays install.

So I'll need to do it manually for now until the software handles that condition automatically. Here is hoping that it arrives by end of year.

Their online page clearly states that it is supported as does their FAQ.
 
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#6
sreehyd said:
I just got my 2 powerwall 2 installed last Friday. I didnt get access to APP yet, I was told in 24hrs I should be getting ? its over 48 hrs. Does 24hrs mean weekday ? Not Weekend taken into account ?
Click to expand...

If it's just like the Model S and Model X, then it's 48 hours (excluding weekends). So Wednesday I presume because Monday and Tuesday are 48 hours

Can you share a picture of your install? I'm now they install two Powerwall, and one Gateway, but I hear there is one more device but I'm curious as to the dimensions of both the Gateway and this other device.
 
#7
sreehyd said:
I just got my 2 powerwall 2 installed last Friday. I didnt get access to APP yet, I was told in 24hrs I should be getting ? its over 48 hrs. Does 24hrs mean weekday ? Not Weekend taken into account ?
Click to expand...

Once my Powerwall 2 was installed and provisioned, it took about an hour or so for access to the APP. I'm not sure if that is atypical, or not. And this was on a Friday.

The Powerwall 2 is my 1st Tesla product (waiting for my Model 3), so there were no other products. Not sure if that makes a difference.
 
#9
zanary said:
I've been hearing conflicting pieces of information. I have Quantity 2 Powerwall getting installed on Wednesday next week. I live in a townhouse complex, so no Solar right now (maybe in the future). I wanted the Powerwall 2 because I currently am on EV-A because of my Model S.

What I want to do is to charge the two Powerwall 2 between 11pm and 6am @ $0.125 and use it throughout the day. My average daily usage is around 14kw, so that's why I went with two Powerwall.

I'm hearing that even with the latest firmware for the Powerwall, that Tesla does not yet support Time of Use Power Shifting, and right now all your an do is do whole home backup.

Is this true? All of the online documentation and the events they held at the factory in Fremont, indicated that we could do Time of Use Power Shifting.

I've tried searching in this group, but I'm seeing old posting that say the same thing, that it is supported by the hardware, but I can't find anyone WITHOUT solar who is doing this.

Can any exiting Powerwall user confirm this?

Note: When I run through my calculations based on PG&E web site for daily usage, I'm saving over 50% of my bill because during daytime hours we're paying upwards of $0.40/kwh, and with the Time of Use Power Shifting, I'll be consume stored energy at $0.125/kwh.

Note: We have AC, but we barely used it. The few days we do use it, we use around 20kwh per day, so two Powerwall will handle that.

Note: All the numbers above exclude the Model S because my Powerwall will be off grid, and NOT connected to the power walls (or that's my plan)
Click to expand...

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my EV-A rate from PG&E and I also live in a townhouse and don't have solar.

Have you done the math and will it have a decent ROI just with TOU? Did you get the rebate to bring the total cost down?
 
#10
dmunjal said:
I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my EV-A rate from PG&E and I also live in a townhouse and don't have solar.

Have you done the math and will it have a decent ROI just with TOU? Did you get the rebate to bring the total cost down?
Click to expand...

We'll here's the problem I have. My math shows that I have a 100% return on investment after I complete my taxes in March in 2018. I've been looking for someone to correct my math, so I'll post it here in hopes someone can fix it if I'm wrong..

Total cost for my Powerwall installation (2 Powerwall, + Gateway + equipment + installation + tax): $13,800.

PG&E Stage 2 SGIP Incentive Cash Back Rebate = $9200 (Yes, my SGIP forms submitted show this and I am confirmed to be part of Stage 2) - it's important that SGIP limits of two Powerwall, so it doesn't matter if you get more than 2 Powerwall, 2 is the limit for SGIP.

This leave an out of pocket cost of $4600 which is not that bad considering.

But according to "S.3159 - Energy Storage Tax Incentive and Deployment Act of 2016", I can claim 30% of the entire cost of the Powerwall Project as a tax credit (similar to that of the $7500 EV Tax Credit). so 30% of $13800 = $ 5040. My tax liability is high enough to get that full tax credit.

So that implies that the entire cost of the Powerwall is $0 for me (after I complete my taxes). From a pure math/numbers perspective only, I should get paid $440 to put in a Powerwall 2 in my Townhouse (imagine that ).

The part that I am still unclear on (my tax accounting is trying to understand the Federal ITC which is this the updated Energy Storage Tax Incentive, is that can I really claim 30% of the cost of the Powerwall project without any sort of solar installation on my Townhouse roof?

I also went back to my PG&E bills since January, and I ran the numbers. The amount of electricity I used during non 11pm-6am price of $0.125 cents wold save me on average 50% (in some cases 70%) per month. So even if I don't get the 30% I figured if I can save around $1500 in electricity per year, so 3 years or so without this Federal Tax Credit is my ROI.

URL = Bill extends investment tax credit to energy storage - Lexology
URL = Titles - S.3159 - 114th Congress (2015-2016): Energy Storage Tax Incentive and Deployment Act of 2016
 
#11
@zanary I'm pretty sure you have four problems:

  1. First I don't think you can ask for the ITC on the portion of the system cost that the SGIP paid for. (And if you could you would have to declare that as income in the year the SGIP paid you, increasing your net cost.)
    1. If they are paying your contractor directly then there is no way you could claim the ITC for this since you didn't pay it.
  2. Everyone I have seen says that the 30% ITC is only for systems with some solar and/or wind portion. (Maybe you could get them to install one small solar panel looking out through a Window? ;) )
  3. If you go for both the SGIP and ITC you have to adjust your SGIP filing to account for the 30% credit. (I believe they reduce your SGIP by 50% of the other incentives you are planning to get.)
  4. The SGIP has a requirement: "Customer must pay a minimum of 40% of system cost." So even if you could do SGIP + ITC without any other limits you would have to pay 10%.

I don't know if #3 counts the ITC, and other, incentives or not.

So my guess: is $13,800 - SGIP $8,280 (No more than 60% of project) - ITC $1,656 = Your end cost of $3,864.

On your SGIP application did you let them know that you plan to go for the ITC?
 
Last edited:
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#12
Yeah; you can't do both ITC+SGIP in full and double dip. The application specifically covers that. Still a good deal. We're waiting for Stage 3 to open down here in SoCal since we all jumped so heavily in and waiting for you slow poke northern folk with PGE to finish up stage 2. ;)

As for the time shifting -- it's still Kludge as MP3Mike reviewed -- there's no "discharge" setting, though SGIP specifically says to do this in support of grid.
 
#13
zanary said:
I've been hearing conflicting pieces of information. I have Quantity 2 Powerwall getting installed on Wednesday next week. I live in a townhouse complex, so no Solar right now (maybe in the future). I wanted the Powerwall 2 because I currently am on EV-A because of my Model S.

What I want to do is to charge the two Powerwall 2 between 11pm and 6am @ $0.125 and use it throughout the day. My average daily usage is around 14kw, so that's why I went with two Powerwall.

I'm hearing that even with the latest firmware for the Powerwall, that Tesla does not yet support Time of Use Power Shifting, and right now all your an do is do whole home backup.

Is this true? All of the online documentation and the events they held at the factory in Fremont, indicated that we could do Time of Use Power Shifting.

I've tried searching in this group, but I'm seeing old posting that say the same thing, that it is supported by the hardware, but I can't find anyone WITHOUT solar who is doing this.

Can any exiting Powerwall user confirm this?

Note: When I run through my calculations based on PG&E web site for daily usage, I'm saving over 50% of my bill because during daytime hours we're paying upwards of $0.40/kwh, and with the Time of Use Power Shifting, I'll be consume stored energy at $0.125/kwh.

Note: We have AC, but we barely used it. The few days we do use it, we use around 20kwh per day, so two Powerwall will handle that.

Note: All the numbers above exclude the Model S because my Powerwall will be off grid, and NOT connected to the power walls (or that's my plan)
Click to expand...
Like you, based on what I've seen and read, I thought they already supported TOU. We don't have solar yet but plan on getting it eventually. We attended a Powerwall event a couple of months back and they said that we could get one now and add solar later but I don't think they knew TOU support wasn't available yet. I was surprised when watching a Fully Charged video recently to hear them mention there's no TOU support yet.

Since we don't have solar yet, I'm not in any hurry to get the Powerwalls installed but I do wonder every week or so when I'll be getting the call indicating they are ready to come out do a site survey.
 
#14
MP3Mike said:
@zanary I'm pretty sure you have four problems:

  1. First I don't think you can ask for the ITC on the portion of the system cost that the SGIP paid for. (And if you could you would have to declare that as income in the year the SGIP paid you, increasing your net cost.)
    1. If they are paying your contractor directly then there is no way you could claim the ITC for this since you didn't pay it.
  2. Everyone I have seen says that the 30% ITC is only for systems with some solar and/or wind portion. (Maybe you could get them to install one small solar panel looking out through a Window? ;) )
  3. If you go for both the SGIP and ITC you have to adjust your SGIP filing to account for the 30% credit. (I believe they reduce your SGIP by 50% of the other incentives you are planning to get.)
  4. The SGIP has a requirement: "Customer must pay a minimum of 40% of system cost." So even if you could do SGIP + ITC without any other limits you would have to pay 10%.

I don't know if #3 counts the ITC, and other, incentives or not.

So my guess: is $13,800 - SGIP $8,280 (No more than 60% of project) - ITC $1,656 = Your end cost of $3,864.

On your SGIP application did you let them know that you plan to go for the ITC?
Click to expand...

Interesting I came upon this (below) which allowed "double dipping" (this agrees with a claim made by installer to me). I am not a CPA, but have had to point things for my tax accountant as she rarely deals with energy incentives for her clients.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOD...6-subtitleA-chap1-subchapB-partIII-sec136.pdf
Direct from the US Code...
§ 136. Energy conservation subsidies provided by
public utilities
(a) Exclusion
Gross income shall not include the value of
any subsidy provided (directly or indirectly) by
a public utility to a customer for the purchase
or installation of any energy conservation meas
The term ‘‘public utility’’ means a person
engaged in the sale of electricity or natural
gas to residential, commercial, or industrial
customers for use by such customers. For
purposes of the preceding sentence, the term
‘‘person’’ includes the Federal Government,
a State or local government or any political
subdivision thereof, or any instrumentality
of any of the foregoing.
(c) Energy conservation measure
(1) In general
For purposes of this section, the term ‘‘en
-
ergy conservation measure’’ means any instal
-
lation or modification primarily designed to
reduce consumption of electricity or natural
gas or to improve the management of energy
demand with respect to a dwelling unit.

--END--

I hope I am not overly optimistic. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Also, could someone point out the charter and verse of the 40% requirement paid by the customer? I don't see this in the 2017 SGIP Handbook. I hope we aren't confusing the rules from 2016 with this year.
 
Last edited:
#16
MP3Mike said:
@zanary I'm pretty sure you have four problems:

  1. First I don't think you can ask for the ITC on the portion of the system cost that the SGIP paid for. (And if you could you would have to declare that as income in the year the SGIP paid you, increasing your net cost.)
    1. If they are paying your contractor directly then there is no way you could claim the ITC for this since you didn't pay it.
  2. Everyone I have seen says that the 30% ITC is only for systems with some solar and/or wind portion. (Maybe you could get them to install one small solar panel looking out through a Window? ;) )
  3. If you go for both the SGIP and ITC you have to adjust your SGIP filing to account for the 30% credit. (I believe they reduce your SGIP by 50% of the other incentives you are planning to get.)
  4. The SGIP has a requirement: "Customer must pay a minimum of 40% of system cost." So even if you could do SGIP + ITC without any other limits you would have to pay 10%.

I don't know if #3 counts the ITC, and other, incentives or not.

So my guess: is $13,800 - SGIP $8,280 (No more than 60% of project) - ITC $1,656 = Your end cost of $3,864.

On your SGIP application did you let them know that you plan to go for the ITC?
Click to expand...

#1 - I just found the line on my SGIP form that said "No" for the Are you taking Federal ITC Credits. I guess I'll just take the SGIP full rebate instead.

#1b - Tesla themselves (no sub contractor) is doing the full install. They came to do the initial site inspection, and the walk-through today and the install on Wednesday. I live about about 20 minutes north of the factory, so Tesla send their own Powerwall install team.

#2 - I think was correct, however the amendments to the bill in late 2016 (see the congress link), now allows just storage without solar to also use the Federal ITC tax credit. The one thing I haven't not found is if Congress passed that amendment during the last administration.

For my SGIP application we didn't discuss the Federal ITC, so I think that's why it was marked as No. The application does show the formula which came out to be $9200 credit. It was submitted the morning when Stage 2 went live and I got the confirmation email from PG&E saying they received the SGIP request.
 
#19
Hi, sorry I didn't see your message earlier. There is no way to do time of use load shifting with the Powerwall currently if you don't have solar until they update the software, short of manually throwing your main breaker. There are no options in the UI at all for controlling the Powerwall without solar connected. I am in this situation since my solar is located too far away from the gateway and so the Powerwall doesn't know I have solar. As a result I just have a big backup battery for now.
 
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