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Traction Control, EAP and snow storms

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Yesterday I had my first chance to drive my P3 through the Sierras when chain controls were in effect. This is why I got an AWD version in the first place; to be able to go to the chain control point with only my PS3+ tires and say yes to AWD and just told to drive safely.

Observations.

1. The traction control was awesome. But, I wonder if HW3 will make it work any better? Doubt it but...It was very noticeable while it was doing its job and I wonder if HW3 would allow it to act a bit more refined. Especially changing lanes. And yes, I had to change lanes even when driving at 30MPH or less. Between the 4X4 pickups that think their tires stick to the road better than mine and want to drive at 60+ and the other pickups towing trailers that loose traction and are going nowhere trying to get up a grade...

2. I am adding my name to those who say level 5 and probably level 4 autonomy will never be reached using only visible light technology [i.e., cameras] and proximity radar. Autosteer was basically useless as it cut itself out over and over way before I felt visibility was less than a quarter mile or so. HW3 will not change that. About every minute I was getting warnings left front camera blinded or low visibility or right front or rear camera. I didn't need the car to tell me visibility was bad, I only had to look out the windows to figure that out. It was by no means blizzard conditions but in late afternoon the whole world was all a very darkening gray with the only visible reference points of where the road was at all were unreliable tracks of the vehicles that had passed recently.
 
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2. I am adding my name to those who say level 5 and probably level 4 autonomy will never be reached using only visible light technology [i.e., cameras] and proximity radar.

What additional technology did you use to drive autonomously yourself besides visible light tech ie eyes (and no radar to help either) before you had a Tesla?
 
For the record the Model 3 AWD has terrible traction control for snow/ice.

There are tons of threads like these.

AWD skidding in snow | Tesla

I suspect one day Tesla will address it because the Model X AWD is phenominal in the snow.
Model 3 AWD just wasn't. The reason is Model 3 is always biased to the rear, Model X is always biased to the front.

But if you have Track Mode 2 you should be all set ;)
 
For the record the Model 3 AWD has terrible traction control for snow/ice.

There are tons of threads like these.

AWD skidding in snow | Tesla

I suspect one day Tesla will address it because the Model X AWD is phenominal in the snow.
Model 3 AWD just wasn't. The reason is Model 3 is always biased to the rear, Model X is always biased to the front.

But if you have Track Mode 2 you should be all set ;)

It was pretty obvious it had a rear wheel bias. But it always caught itself. That's what I mean't when I said it could b a bit more refined. If track mode 2 helps that will be great.
 
It was pretty obvious it had a rear wheel bias. But it always caught itself. That's what I mean't when I said it could b a bit more refined. If track mode 2 helps that will be great.

Yeah, but a good AWD system doesn’t constantly “lose it” to later have to catch itself in the first place.

I’m not sure how safe (or practical) track mode 2 would be. But it’s so configurable you might be able to setup a safe and efficient snow profile. That would be very cool.
 
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Please, please do not use any AP features (Cruise Control/TACC or AutoSteer) in conditions so poor that chain-up rules are in effect. I fear sharing the road with people that do this. It is ludicrously dangerous. These systems, as you noticed only mildly thankfully, are not at all designed for poor weather conditions. Especially if you manage to get AutoSteer to engage, the sudden jerks it does when lines are hard to see puts your life and the lives of others around you in danger. If nothing else, listen to your owner's manual that I'm almost certain says not to do this (as does every car's manual that includes cruise control).

HW3 will not make this any better. AutoSteer needs lines to operate, TACC disables entirely when the front radar is obscured, and it has a hard enough time consolidating road information to actual road conditions. Even with changes and updates, this is an entirely different problem to solve that to my knowledge no one is working on, including Tesla.

"Reading" the road in poor conditions is very difficult, and even more so when you have to deal with human patterns in addition to that. A nearby 4-lane mountain pass often becomes unofficially two lanes, simply because those are the tracks people are making. Not to mention additional logic like not passing plows, not passing semis where the lanes are really skinny, not passing in corners... I'm not saying it's impossible. It's extraordinarily improbable, and doesn't at all matter to the $$$-backed companies trying to solve self-driving.

For the record the Model 3 AWD has terrible traction control for snow/ice.

There are tons of threads like these.

AWD skidding in snow | Tesla

I suspect one day Tesla will address it because the Model X AWD is phenominal in the snow.
Model 3 AWD just wasn't. The reason is Model 3 is always biased to the rear, Model X is always biased to the front.

But if you have Track Mode 2 you should be all set ;)

Haha this is what pissed me off about Track Mode v2 (since I don't have it). Previously people were suggesting that they simply can't do a forward bias with the Model 3 due to how the rear motor works. Apparently that's bull dung, since they went and offered it for the Performance folks. So close, yet so far.

I'll still keep waiting (read: being bitter) for a "True-AWD" or "Snow" mode that will probably never come.
 
Haha this is what pissed me off about Track Mode v2 (since I don't have it). Previously people were suggesting that they simply can't do a forward bias with the Model 3 due to how the rear motor works. Apparently that's bull dung, since they went and offered it for the Performance folks. So close, yet so far.


Possibly this will make you feel better- but the bias slider if set to 100% on TM2 appears to only fully apply when the car is taking turns.

In a straight line it still uses both motors even when set 100% to front or rear.... (though does still bias in one direction or another somewhat... turning one off entirely in a straight would be a substantial loss of power otherwise)


Anyway- the reason they don't set front bias "usually" in the 3, as related to the rear motor, is the rear one is a lot more efficient than the front one.

So using the rear exclusively until front is needed produces a lot better range rating.

AFAIK there's no technical reason they can't enable a "Really, the snow is bad and I don't give a crap about range" button that gives all versions of the 3 a front bias for the rest of the given drive though.
 
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I hope TM2 actually does help. I found out early that in reverse the front wheels become the rear wheels and in slick condition backing uphill into my garage can be a challenge.

Does anyone know if TM2 can set up multiple profiles for different conditions? My car just finished updating to 2020.8.1 about an hour ago so I can check it out tomorrow.

Like I wrote earlier I now do not believe level 4 or 5 autonomy is possible with only visible light technology. I'm not sure even LIDAR is sufficient. Maybe Elon should try driving from Fremont to the Sparks Gigafactory during adverse Sierra weather.
 
I
Like I wrote earlier I now do not believe level 4 or 5 autonomy is possible with only visible light technology. I'm not sure even LIDAR is sufficient. Maybe Elon should try driving from Fremont to the Sparks Gigafactory during adverse Sierra weather.


and I pointed out yor statement made no sense.

When I asked how a human drives in such weather using only visible light technology you told me you just stay home in that weather.

L4/L5 doesn't mean "Car can magically drive in places/conditions humans can't"
 
When I asked how a human drives in such weather using only visible light technology you told me you just stay home in that weather.
a human has 10 billion neurons devoted to the task, over a trillion connections. In addition, human visual hardware can move, adjusting viewpoints nearly infinitely, accumulating parallax information. There is also accommodative information (continuously varying focal/depth information) as well as highly precise binocular analysis good to seconds of arc in real-time. A human has decades of learning and also has 10's more billions of neurons devoted to economic/risk-reward analysis. Finally a human has a far greater catalog of objects and models of object behavior to predict outcomes of each object in 4-space.
 
Both in heavy rain and snow, even light enough to just cover up lane markings makes autopilot unavailable. Just experiencing that countless times, I know FSD is far far away

I'd be happy with Level 2+ in ideal weather conditions, ideal road markings, highway only.
We don't even have that yet in my opinion. But i think it might be doable with the hardware we have.