Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[nwdiver]

Here's an idea for all the Democratically dominated legislatures (California legislature + Governor, U.S. House of Representatives):

Pass a law that states the utilities CAN'T charge "demand charges" for EV charging !!!

Here in SoCal SCE (Southern California Edison) business "On Peak" electric rates are 44¢ per kWh... BEFORE "Demand Charges"

Demand Charges increase the already HIGH 44¢ per kWh rate 50% to 100%... or 100% to 200% more during "Critical Peak Pricing" (when SCE declares the grid is "stressed" on HOT days or during wildfires when the grid is partially shut down).

NO I'M NOT KIDDING.

Our business owns an office building and BUSINESS electric rates are CRAZY. Our 4,100 sq. ft office building incurs the 50% to 100% "surcharge" for exceeding 20kW demand more than 3 times IN A YEAR !!!

Now imagine what Tesla pays to Supercharge your EV. OUCH.

SO, Democrats... I challenge you to get your 100% Democrat controlled legislature to EXEMPT EV charging from utility "demand charges" to meet California Governor Newsome's aggressive "no ICE cars in CA" proclamation.

NO EXCUSE NOT TO GET THIS DONE IMMEDIATELY since the Democrats control BOTH the legislature AND the administration.

Your move...

We need to address the supply/demand mismatch and the economics will follow. My understanding is that a lot of CA utilities are refusing to allow demand response and storage to really aggregate onto their systems. That's what needs to be addressed. If SDG&E was forced to buy electricity from PWs at 75% of what they're charging per kWh they would likely see a lot of energy offered and the prices would start to fall.

 

[jeremymc7]

Without a real understanding I think the following is the case for CA.

You can’t install a Powerwall (without solar) and buy at evening discounted rates to use during the day during higher rates.

You can’t install solar and Powerwalls and disconnect 100% from SCE.

Both of which seem unreasonable.

 

[AmokTime]

Oh and for those curious the lifetime average for my car at 7,038 miles equates to 32mpg using the same calculations. So the first part of the trip was abnormally high consumption. Who knows why, The second part was pretty accurate.

So let me rephrase:
Driving ANY ICE vehicle that gets over 33mpg at the current price $2.25 price of fuel is CHEAPER than supercharging in MY Model 3 in Montana.

Yes, driving the M3 may be more fun, driving my Plaid Model S WILL be more fun once I get it. (But even MORE expensive! )
LOL

Good day!

On most of my 200 mile round trip beach day trips I average around 190 - 200 Wh/mile with the AC on. For my 120-mile round trips to the NE Philly burbs I average about 170 - 180 Wh/mile. My home electric rate is about $0.13/KWh, so it costs about $0.026/mile. Supercharger in South Jersey (Cape May Courthouse) is $0.29/KWh, which comes out to $0.058/mile. My Prius C used to get about 50mpg. At $2.25/gallon, that’s $0.045/mile. An ICE with 35mpg highway would be about $0.064/mile.

If you are doing 220 Wh/mi then home charging is about $0.028/mile and some change. Supercharging would be a bit less than $0.064/mile, roughly the same as a 35mpg ICE car.

At 250 Wh/mi (pretty excessive - I don’t think I’ve ever hit numbers like this), home charging would be $0.0325/mile and supercharging in S. Jersey would be $0.0725/mi, which is about the same as an ICE car with 31mpg.

I’m guessing South Jersey‘s supercharger rates are higher than those in Montana, but probably not by much. Residential rates in Montana average $0.108/KWh. You can scale the above numbers for your supercharger rates in Montana. The values scale linearly. Just take the value for your supercharger, divide it by $0.29, and multiply it by the above supercharger cost/mile figures.

 

[Daniel in SD]

On most of my 200 mile round trip beach day trips I average around 190 - 200 Wh/mile with the AC on. For my 120-mile round trips to the NE Philly burbs I average about 170 - 180 Wh/mile. My home electric rate is about $0.13/KWh, so it costs about $0.026/mile. Supercharger in South Jersey (Cape May Courthouse) is $0.29/KWh, which comes out to $0.058/mile. My Prius C used to get about 50mpg. At $2.25/gallon, that’s $0.045/mile. An ICE with 35mpg highway would be about $0.064/mile.

If you are doing 220 Wh/mi then home charging is about $0.028/mile and some change. Supercharging would be a bit less than $0.064/mile, roughly the same as a 35mpg ICE car.

At 250 Wh/mi (pretty excessive - I don’t think I’ve ever hit numbers like this), home charging would be $0.0325/mile and supercharging in S. Jersey would be $0.0725/mi, which is about the same as an ICE car with 31mpg.

I’m guessing South Jersey‘s supercharger rates are higher than those in Montana, but probably not by much. Residential rates in Montana average $0.108/KWh. You can scale the above numbers for your supercharger rates in Montana. The values scale linearly. Just take the value for your supercharger, divide it by $0.29, and multiply it by the above supercharger cost/mile figures.

You need to measure energy usage from the wall/supercharger. The in car meter is from the battery. Superchargers used to measure charge delivered to battery but they switched to energy from the cable (Tesla updates Supercharger billing to add cost of electricity use for other than charging - Electrek). Easiest thing to do is to take a trip and see what it actually costs, which is what OP did...
I have a lifetime average of 320Wh/mi (car meter, I don't have a meter on my charger).

 

[AmokTime]

Obviously gas is, and has been for many decades, WAY overpriced. It’s been a monopoly and sadly it’s one that no one ever did anything about. How many times was AT&T broken up over the decades because it became too large of a monopoly.

Now that said Europe is considerably worse with gas pricing compared to the US. But when it comes to US states like California then you’re talking about one of the highest taxation rates in the country. Obviously I’ve been EV for quite a while but as I recall California taxes were well over 25% per each gallon. Absurd.

PA and CA have historically been the worst on gas taxes - currently CA is in the lead at $0.822/gallon vs. PA’s $0.771/gallon. Today, regular is averaging $2.46/gallon in PA, so PA’s gas taxes are about 31% of the current price at the pump. CA is averaging $3.18/gallon, so about 25.8% tax.

People haven’t been driving much during COVID. That means gasoline sales have plummeted, and that means tax revenue for road maintenance has plummeted. The way road maintenance is budgeted assumes relatively steady tax revenue. Between the depressed gas prices and no one driving we’re probably looking at some kind of road usage taxation apocalypse by next summer. You may find a toll booth at the end of your driveway soon.

Some states are responding to EVs by enacting excessive road usage fees at registration time. In PA they are trying to pass a $250/year road usage fee. For me, that’s an owie. I drive less than 10K miles/year. In my Prius I was paying at most $154/year. Technically, the vast majority of my driving is in Delaware, so I’d probably be buying gas there. Driving my EV in PA is going to get more expensive. Looks like PA is trying to calibrate the EV tax for drivers who drive 15K/year at a rate equivalent to that of an ICE car that gets about 46 mpg. The reason they gave for increasing the proposed fee from the original $150/year to $250/year was something to the effect that “EVs cost like $100K. EV owners can afford a $250/year fee.”

 

[SageBrush]

Solar doesn't help very much anymore because there is so much solar generation that it's pushed peak load and rates to 4-9pm (at least in CA).
Need batteries! Hopefully the new 4680 batteries will make that cost effective, especially if they can optimize the chemistry for supercharger use.

You would be singing a different tune if cars were charging from 9am to 3pm. Nowadays they do not for the most part, but that can change. Workplace charging, e.g. would be a great place to start. It is vastly cheaper to time-shift demand than to store energy.

Consider that a work-place L2 circuit is good for ~ 60 kWh a day for the life of the circuit, say 50 years.
A 2" trench can supply ~ 5 EVSE stations at 48 Amps each (or 8 EVSE at 24 Amps each ...)
That is
5 EVSE stations
48 Amps each
240 Volts
6 hours a day
5 days a week
52 weeks a year
50 years
---
4.5E6 kWh. At 1 cent a kWh you could pay $45,000 for the circuit before financing. In case you are wondering, google says that asphalt trenching is ~ $20 a linear foot at scale.

 

[AmokTime]

You need to measure energy usage from the wall/supercharger. The in car meter is from the battery. Superchargers used to measure charge delivered to battery but they switched to energy from the cable (Tesla updates Supercharger billing to add cost of electricity use for other than charging - Electrek). Easiest thing to do is to take a trip and see what it actually costs, which is what OP did...
I have a lifetime average of 320Wh/mi (car meter, I don't have a meter on my charger).

Good point. It is true that charging efficiency is non-unity even at 400VDC. I’ve read that the charging efficiency is about 92% except in the top 10% of SoC. So you could divide my supercharging price/mile numbers by 0.92 for a good estimate unless you are sitting in the car with the AC and stereo running during the charging session. In round numbers, $14 is 48 KWh at Jersey prices. At 320 Wh/mile that’s 150 miles, so it jives with OPs situation. Still, though, even at 92% charge efficiency, my 200 Wh/mile would be only 217.4 Wh/mile on a “from the cable” basis. Even if I assume only 90% efficiency that’s still only 222.2. 250 would equate to 278@90% efficiency. If he is sitting in the car with A/C and stereo running during the charging session that might push him into the range he describes.

240VAC L2 charging is even less efficient than supercharging.

 

[AmokTime]

IEEE says mean L2 charging efficiency is 89.4%. So you could estimate the scale up of my home charging prices by dividing by .894 to put it in “to the cable” basis.

 

[AmokTime]

There is a thread on another forum where users were posting their lifetime M3 Wh/mi stats. Looked like LRAWD folks were mostly around the 230 - 260 range. There were some P stats just over 300. The SR+ entries were between 210 and 230. There was a LRRWD at 215.

I’ll have to check mine. I’m Mr Coldmeiser - I only use the heat in the winter if my wife is in the car, so I probably do better than average. I’m one of those guys who doesn’t wear a coat, hat, or gloves during the winter. I’ve had my 2019 since June 2019 and I just used the seat heater for the first time on Friday when the wife and I took one of our NE burbs trips. I did it so I could minimize cabin heat after she put up her hood and cinched it up like Kenny from South Park.

 

[SageBrush]

. I’ve had my 2019 since June 2019 and I just used the seat heater for the first time on Friday when the wife and I took one of our NE burbs trips. I did it so I could minimize cabin heat after she put up her hood and cinched it up like Kenny from South Park.

That explains why the wife used the heat seater. What is your excuse ?

 

[BrokerDon]

You would be singing a different tune if cars were charging from 9am to 3pm. Nowadays they do not for the most part, but that can change. Workplace charging, e.g. would be a great place to start. It is vastly cheaper to time-shift demand than to store energy.

At 1 cent a kWh you could pay $45,000 for the circuit before financing.

1¢ a kWh doesn't exist in CA. Our company pays Southern California Edison ("SCE"):

• 44¢ On Peak 4PM to 9PM weekdays (Summer)
• 27¢ Mid Peak 4PM to 9PM weekends (Winter)
• 16¢ Off Peak Midnight to 4PM and 9PM to Midnight (Summer) and 9PM to 8AM (Winter)
• 12¢ Super Off Peak 8AM to 4PM (Winter)

Summer: Jun 01-Sep 30
Winter: Oct 01-May 31​

These rates increase 50% to 100% if our company exceeds 20kWh demand at ANY time during 3 months... OR during SCE's 12 annual Critical Peak Pricing events... when our rate exceeds 80¢ kWh !!! We BARELY avoided the Demand Charge by completing a $100,000 tenant improvement including several energy efficiency improvements... and are adding a $42,000 / 14.8kW DC SunPower solar system in December to permanently eliminate future Demand Charges and Critical Peak Pricing surcharges which will cut our electrical cost significantly.

SUMMARY:

1. Workplace charging makes NO $ENSE for most CA businesses which is why it is rare.
2. Tesla is selling their Supercharger power at a loss in CA during the hours most Tesla owners charge.

 

[BrokerDon]

On most of my 200 mile round trip beach day trips I average around 190 - 200 Wh/mile with the AC on.

At 250 Wh/mi (pretty excessive - I don’t think I’ve ever hit numbers like this)

My 2015 P85D averages 350 kWh/mile... and I don't drive like its stolen. It doesn't get really cold or hot here by the ocean either. 190 kWh/mile? Maybe if I start at the top of a local mountain with a full charge and drive downhill.

 

[SageBrush]

1¢ a kWh doesn't exist in CA.

Congrats - you have completely missed the point of my post.

The context was how to not waste mid-day clean energy that is otherwise in excess without storage.
One inexpensive answer is to time -shift demand.

 

[Daniel in SD]

1¢ a kWh doesn't exist in CA. Our company pays Southern California Edison ("SCE"):

• 44¢ On Peak 4PM to 9PM weekdays (Summer)
• 27¢ Mid Peak 4PM to 9PM weekends (Winter)
• 16¢ Off Peak Midnight to 4PM and 9PM to Midnight (Summer) and 9PM to 8AM (Winter)
• 12¢ Super Off Peak 8AM to 4PM (Winter)

Summer: Jun 01-Sep 30
Winter: Oct 01-May 31​

These rates increase 50% to 100% if our company exceeds 20kWh demand at ANY time during 3 months... OR during SCE's 12 annual Critical Peak Pricing events... when our rate exceeds 80¢ kWh !!! We BARELY avoided the Demand Charge by completing a $100,000 tenant improvement including several energy efficiency improvements... and are adding a $42,000 / 14.8kW DC SunPower solar system in December to permanently eliminate future Demand Charges and Critical Peak Pricing surcharges which will cut our electrical cost significantly.

SUMMARY:

1. Workplace charging makes NO $ENSE for most CA businesses which is why it is rare.
2. Tesla is selling their Supercharger power at a loss in CA during the hours most Tesla owners charge.

I'm a little confused. What are the rates for businesses that use more than 20kW of power peak?
How will solar reduce demand charges? One cloudy hour on a hot day and you're screwed.
Also, workplace charging could work if you just limit it to the times with 16c rate (which is most of regular work hours).
No doubt CA electricity is super expensive. I'm sure some of it has to do with freeloaders like me who use the grid for free because of roof top solar.

 

[SageBrush]

What are the rates for businesses that use more than 20kW of power peak?

I have seen utility schedules that have one commercial tariff for peak loads below 'x' kW and and a different tariff above 'x' kW
It is supposed to reflect the cost of a larger transformer

 

[SSonnentag]

I just calculated the gas mileage equivalent for my 2017 Model S.
$35 spent on electricity for 91,000 miles of driving comes to 5,850 mpg if gas prices are $2.25/gallon.

Beat that, Prius!

 

[AlexP]

One gallon of gas has equivalent of almost 34kwh. At the supercharge rate ($0.28) the price of the equivalent of 1 Gallon is $9.50. Definitely more expensive than gas. But you can drive anywhere between 100 to 130 miles on 34KWh which brings the price per mile to as low as $0.07. Essentially even the biggest battery that Tesla makes has the equivalent energy of 3 gallons of gas. Try going 300 miles or more on 3 gallons of gas on any ICE car.

FPL charges just about $0.11 per KWh, the price per mile drops to as low as $0.02 per mile for charging at home.

 

[AmokTime]

One gallon of gas has equivalent of almost 34kwh. At the supercharge rate ($0.28) the price of the equivalent of 1 Gallon is $9.50. Definitely more expensive than gas. But you can drive anywhere between 100 to 130 miles on 34KWh which brings the price per mile to as low as $0.07. Essentially even the biggest battery that Tesla makes has the equivalent energy of 3 gallons of gas. Try going 300 miles or more on 3 gallons of gas on any ICE car.

FPL charges just about $0.11 per KWh, the price per mile drops to as low as $0.02 per mile for charging at home.

A lot of that energy ends up as heat in an ICE car - doesn’t make it to the wheels. My Prius C was 50mpg - 50 miles on one gallon of gas - 34KWh of chemical energy. In my Tesla M3SR+ it takes only about 10 KWh to drive 50 miles.

 

[AmokTime]

That makes a Tesla M3SR+ a bit over 3 times more efficient than a very efficient ICE car.

 

[AmokTime]

Again, factor the M3 KWh by .92 for charging efficiency so we can talk pump vs. supercharger.