Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[one2many]

Well as a kid I was very upset when a hamburger went from 5cents to 10 cents.
I had to pony up the 10 cents or no burger for me. Then came the whopper, the flame
thing going on. Well if you are looking for the dark state, buy a 24Kwh leaf and drive it
4 years, maybe should be a requirement to post. Now how do I make a gin and tonic?

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

Well said, Adam, well said.

 

[AdamMacDon]

Demand charges look like they're $12.22 per kW peak. So a single 250kW charger would likely have an addition fixed charge of $3,055 per month if I'm interpreting it correctly. If the charger only averages 500kWh per day that's an addition $0.20/kWh in demand charges. The electricity itself is only $0.06 per kWh. The issue is the ratio of peak power to average power of superchargers.
General Service Business Rates

It would be nice if they had time of use rates for superchargers to help even out load on the grid.

I should have specified residential rates. Not sure how the demand costs are paid for at a commercial level, especially because some of the chargers around me are inside large mall complexes (do they share the cost in some way, or have their own service?). Also I'm pretty sure BC Hydro doesn't have any type of time of day based billing, and i doubt it's coming anytime soon. Source. Keep in mind that most houses here don't have central AC, and electric heat is usually seen as prohibitively expensive, so the load is more evenly balanced than places like SoCal where I imagine AC use puts a good load on the grid during the day.

 

[SageBrush]

Not sure how the demand costs are paid for at a commercial level,

You can be pretty confident that Superchargers installed to facilitate trips in Montana are on a commercial schedule with demand charges.
I looked into commercial demand charges in my corner of rural Colorado not too long ago and found $20 a kW

This thread is just a case of another person who is ignorant of demand charges.

 

[iamnid]

Meanwhile, all of us in california are crying about all the mention of $2 gasoline. Haven't seen that in a few decades.

 

[jeremymc7]

I didn’t look at the kWh charge, I’m simply going by two facts. One, I drove 140 miles and two, it cost me $14.56 to top off to the same 90% charge I left with.

This Model 3 isn’t overly efficient compared to my Model S. I’ve never achieved rated range in the 3 or my MX, the MS would regularly achieve rated range and often exceeded it.

Almost no one achieves rated MPG or MPGe unless you’re a hypermiler.

 

[jeremymc7]

Any fair comparison would also also include wear, tear, maintenance, resale, and opportunity cost / time value.

Not just cost of “fuel” per mile.

I’ve spent WAY less time at Supercharger over gas stations.

I’ve never (yet) have to take my Tesla’s (so far) to a service center, where my Audi was there multiple times within the first week / month of purchase.

 

[sduck]

Still would have been cheaper to drive my Turbo Jetta at 38mpg.

So, idle curiosity at work: How many cars do you own? I've seen you mention a mercedes, a corvette, a truck of some sort, a jetta, and there are 3 teslas in your sig, and a plaid model S in the pipeline. The way you throw them out there may be a bunch more you haven't mentioned.

 

[smartypnz]

After reading all this.... I realized - I DON'T CARE. After almost 8 years and into our 2nd and 3rd Teslas, The cost to SC them means - NOTHING.
Our overall costs to have and run these cars has been massively less. Tires, wipers, car wax that gets bugs (harder to do since accelerating is much more fun), I felt like I was splurging when I bought a second tire gauge for the 'glovebox'.
Looked at cost of our previous vehicle - BMW's. (Gas, insurance, software updates - always above $500 to fix THEIR flaws in programming - Oil changes, - $200 - $300 each time to fix a nagging headlight several times - not their fault. Required service appts (treated like they were doing me a favor) another $400 - 500.
Gas - relative to location - for us 8 years ago was in the $4 range at 24 mpg
GIVE ME A BREAK !!!

Now I pull into my garage, plug in and forget it. Next morning, these babies are ready and raring to go. LOOK OUT MOTORCYCLES cuz this baby doesn't bother running with ICE cars.

High SC prices - HAH !!!

 

[yerEVan]

Sir, it appears you just want to argue, have at it, but it will be with someone else. The term “commuting” is something YOU brought up and is actually quite irrelevant to my point that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE vehicle.

Like you said, “as someone who owns so many vehicles blah blah”. You’re correct, I DO understand business. Which again is pretty irrelevant. I simply used the term “profit center” as that IS the term Elon used years ago when referring to his superchargers. I’m not here to argue about the dollars and cents of what it costs to install an operate a supercharger.

My point was and still is SUPERCHARGING IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN DRIVING MOST ICE VEHICLES HERE IN MONTANA. I was also simply asking if that is the same in other states.

Good day!

I was scared reading this post, but the “Good Day”, nice touch.

 

[DDHEverything]

I wonder why someone with a twin turbo mercedes, a corvette and a tesla is worried about supercharging prices...

* 3 Teslas

 

[ochompsky]

check your math

could tell you the same thing but you never gave numbers. because we both know you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

 

[drtimhill]

ok so the variables are as follows:

-- Electricity costs at your home (assuming you charge at home, which is of course is not always true)
-- Supercharging rates along your journey corridor
-- Average (or some other meaningful approximation) Wh/mile for your driving style
-- Local cost of gas and cost of gas on your journey corridor
-- Choice of ICE car for comparison
-- MPG of chosen ICE car for your driving style
-- Current economic conditions (e.g. Covid driving gas prices down)
-- Weather conditions when you make the journey

There is enough variation here to pretty much draw any conclusion you wish. If you bias the variables toward EV, you can show EVs are better, if (as the OP seemed to do) you bias toward ICE, you can show ICE are better. The reality, of course, is "it depends". In my case, in the PNW, gas is pretty expensive, and electricity cheap, so EVs win out by a WIDE margin.

No doubt in other areas it is very different (TX, for example, has cheap gas and expensive electricity so I am told, and of course in CA they are both expensive). However, over the medium term I would expect electricity prices to continue to go down overall while gas prices rise, so perhaps things will change (long term its not clear since at some point the rise of EVs will increase demand for electricity).

 

[SageBrush]

New ok so the variables are as follows:

This is a pretty good list for grid electricity but EVs really stand out with home PV. Then the other variables pretty much fall to the wayside.

 

[sduck]

could tell you the same thing but you never gave numbers. because we both know you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Welcome to the forum! Were you actually responding to me or the OP? It's unclear.

 

[drtimhill]

This is a pretty good list for grid electricity but EVs really stand out with home PV. Then the other variables pretty much fall to the wayside.

Agreed. The only major factors for EVs are home vs non-home charging and temperature.

 

[PDX-JP]

Demand charges are expensive. I highly doubt Tesla is profiting.

and of course the newer superchargers that charge at faster rates drive the demand charges ever higher. I used to work in the industry and the monthly demand charge from LADWP was based on the single highest instance of demand within the month. Yes, it’s all about the demand charges.

 

[RyanS]

I am willing to pay extra for reliable charging stations. I never had that when I was driving Leaf. Regular charging stations are often being used as parking spots and rates are all over the places. SC system is pretty wonderful IMHO and I'm grateful that Tesla is keep adding them. It allows me to drive long distances without worries and anxieties. For us Californians, the SC rate is still reasonable.

 

[bruce4000]

and of course the newer superchargers that charge at faster rates drive the demand charges ever higher. I used to work in the industry and the monthly demand charge from LADWP was based on the single highest instance of demand within the month. Yes, it’s all about the demand charges.

There were articles in September about Electrify America was buying Tesla power packs to reduce demand charges at chargers. I would think Tesla V3 chargers would have some batteries also? Since the peak charge rate doesn’t last long, and not all cars will be at same max point on charge curve, shouldn’t take that much battery to help.

 

[jeremymc7]

There were articles in September about Electrify America was buying Tesla power packs to reduce demand charges at chargers. I would think Tesla V3 chargers would have some batteries also? Since the peak charge rate doesn’t last long, and not all cars will be at same max point on charge curve, shouldn’t take that much battery to help.

Does the difference in demand changes justify adding batteries; even if buying them at cost?

One of the reasons I haven’t added solar is based on historical use, system size, current / future pricing it would take at least a decade and I won’t be here that long. Nor does the resale on solar add enough. Same goes for a Powerwall, it’s cost is so high I’d rather upsize the solar instead of adding the battery, or just go with a minimum + margin of error solar setup. The power only goes out here once a year or even every two.