Trialling FSD

[S4WRXTTCS]

If anything they should be able to swap the Hardware as I've heard it's not all that time consuming.

Well no because the hardware will continue to improve.

We're at HW3 now (for FSD), and that will become HW4 within a couple years.

So obviously you wouldn't want to put HW3 into a HW4 car when trading in.

You just want your software license to move from the old car to the new one. That way Tesla can improve other things like adding more cameras/sensors/etc.

At some point Tesla has to deal with the whole "you promised us a full self driving car, but it isn't and it's never going to be no matter what magical software sprinkles you throw at it", and the best response from Tesla I can see is allowing us to own the Software. That way we have full self driving Software, and we just need the HW.

 

[jonquiljo]

What I would say to that is, Tesla will sell the car again with FSD and build it back in, essentially charging twice for the same "piece of software". It's a double dip. I'm surprised honestly in such a litigious society that noone has brought this to the courts.

I’m sure things will get that way. One of the reasons I hesitate to buy FSD is because it is not transferable. FSD is not complete (with far to go) and if I buy a Model Y in a couple of years, I have to buy FSD all over again. Who knows if my current Model 3 would have FSD as value in the car if I bought the software.

 

[Fresnel]

What I would say to that is, Tesla will sell the car again with FSD and build it back in, essentially charging twice for the same "piece of software". It's a double dip. I'm surprised honestly in such a litigious society that noone has brought this to the courts.

Yeah. That is a good point. It's deff something that rubs me the wrong way for sure. One way to kind of justify it somewhat is any time you buy any other car the software is locked in on purchase. Yeah it's great Teslas update and all but any time you buy the next other car you buy what ever software comes with the car again. So it's a similar thing that way. No optional software features get carried over.. Maybe when Tesla gets some competition from other manufacturers it will change.

 

[mreynolds767]

Based on the recent change in wording and reports of Acceleration Boost easy cancellations.
If you order from the app to trial it and cancel within 48 hours I imagine it will be fairly smooth.

Is still $7K and could take a week or two to reflect back on your CC.

My understanding is originally there was a no refund / all sales final policy in place.
Someone tweeted a complaint to Elon they bought it by accident so he agreed they should allow a refund period for such instances.
Under the cancel selection it asks why (bought by accident, was not what I thought, etc...) so they are clearly as of now offering this on a 48 hour window

 

[jonquiljo]

Well no because the hardware will continue to improve.

We're at HW3 now (for FSD), and that will become HW4 within a couple years.

So obviously you wouldn't want to put HW3 into a HW4 car when trading in.

You just want your software license to move from the old car to the new one. That way Tesla can improve other things like adding more cameras/sensors/etc.

At some point Tesla has to deal with the whole "you promised us a full self driving car, but it isn't" and the best recourse I can see is owning the SW. That way we have full self driving Software, and we just need the HW.

Has anyone seen a “software license” for FSD? If you can buy FSD separately, Tesla really should have some written license with terms and conditions. A credit card receipt just doesn’t cut it.

 

[mreynolds767]

Regarding the non transferable I fully agree and also why at the current price and what it currently offers it just doesn;t make sense to me.
I also have 2 friends leasing a 3 (one delivered one in the purchase process)

If leasing becomes more popular for Telsa you would think they have to go subscription model on FSD.
With a lease you cannot buy it back at the end currently so makes the FSD an even tougher sell.

 

[CharleyBC]

One of the reasons I hesitate to buy FSD is because it is not transferable.

Yup. I would advise (in fact, I have advised) people to not buy FSD if they don't plan to own the car for the long haul. There are folks who buy a new car every three years, no matter what. Unless they have cash spilling out of their pockets, I'd say don't buy it. Similar logic for getting the car on a lease. We hope to own our 3 for many, many years, so we can wait for FSD to mature into something valuable.

 

[huangm777]

Based on the recent change in wording and reports of Acceleration Boost easy cancellations.
If you order from the app to trial it and cancel within 48 hours I imagine it will be fairly smooth.

Is still $7K and could take a week or two to reflect back on your CC.

My understanding is originally there was a no refund / all sales final policy in place.
Someone tweeted a complaint to Elon they bought it by accident so he agreed they should allow a refund period for such instances.
Under the cancel selection it asks why (bought by accident, was not what I thought, etc...) so they are clearly as of now offering this on a 48 hour window

The person who bought it by accident was Nassim Taleb, the author of influential books and inventor of the “black swan” concept. He complained about it on Twitter to Elon. We probably have the 48 hour refund window as a result of this.

 

[Turlejay]

Yeah. That is a good point. It's deff something that rubs me the wrong way for sure. One way to kind of justify it somewhat is any time you buy any other car the software is locked in on purchase. Yeah it's great Teslas update and all but any time you buy the next other car you buy what ever software comes with the car again. So it's a similar thing that way. No optional software features get carried over.. Maybe when Tesla gets some competition from other manufacturers it will change.

I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen a car rely so much on an operating system so to speak to where there's software purchased after the fact. I'm sure it exists, I've just never seen it. Also, none of what we are talking about is on the window sticker. For example: I leased a 2017 Chevy Volt. It came with two separate charging connectors. They were both listed on the window sticker. Therefore needed to be returned when I turned the car in. The other side to this is my 2015 Chevy Silverado. I bought a tonneau cover from the dealer separate from the lease agreement. When I turned that in, the cover was mine to keep. Software is essentially a tangible purchase. It's effectively equipment purchased after the fact. Again, I also own the computer in the car thats running the software.

 

[Fresnel]

I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen a car rely so much on an operating system so to speak to where there's software purchased after the fact. I'm sure it exists, I've just never seen it. Also, none of what we are talking about is on the window sticker. For example: I leased a 2017 Chevy Volt. It came with two separate charging connectors. They were both listed on the window sticker. Therefore needed to be returned when I turned the car in. The other side to this is my 2015 Chevy Silverado. I bought a tonneau cover from the dealer separate from the lease agreement. When I turned that in, the cover was mine to keep. Software is essentially a tangible purchase. It's effectively equipment purchased after the fact. Again, I also own the computer in the car thats running the software.

So it sounds like the solution for Tesla is to not have it on the window sticker then. That'll fix the illusion of needing to be returned.
Software isn't tangible. Ya know... since you can't touch it and all.

 

[Turlejay]

So it sounds like the solution for Tesla is to not have it on the window sticker then. That'll fix the illusion of needing to be returned.
Software isn't tangible. Ya know... since you can't touch it and all.

IMO Software, like music, movies and other digital items is in fact tangible items. I understand the definition of the word, but I couldn't fmcone up with another way to say it.

 

[M109Rider]

I only hope that this return policy doesn’t get abused. Those that abuse policies like this, are the very first to complain after it gets taken away, because of the abuse.
Ruins it for those that it’s meant for.

 

[Turlejay]

I only hope that this return policy doesn’t get abused. Those that abuse policies like this, are the very first to complain after it gets taken away, because of the abuse.
Ruins it for those that it’s meant for.

I never thought of it as abuse. After reading everyone's post here, I probably won't do it. That being said, if they didn't want returns, and a 2nd level authentication for purchases. Honestly, it's too easy to buy it by accident. All that being said, maybe they should just give everyone a free month of it at purchase, what's to lose? Maybe even a couple weeks. Maybe some people decide to buy it after trying it. How many people make such a large purchase without being able to try it?

 

[M109Rider]

I never thought of it as abuse. After reading everyone's post here, I probably won't do it. That being said, if they didn't want returns, and a 2nd level authentication for purchases. Honestly, it's too easy to buy it by accident. All that being said, maybe they should just give everyone a free month of it at purchase, what's to lose? Maybe even a couple weeks. Maybe some people decide to buy it after trying it. How many people make such a large purchase without being able to try it?

I wasn’t really implying you specifically were abusing it. I think being able to try it, is a good idea.

However, I have a feeling this will get abused, and then taken away, or changed at least.
There’s a large group of folks, that don’t care about anything but their own interests, regardless of the fallout.

 

[Turlejay]

I wasn’t really implying you specifically were abusing it. I think being able to try it, is a good idea.

However, I have a feeling this will get abused, and then taken away, or changed at least.
There’s a large group of folks, that don’t care about anything but their own interests, regardless of the fallout.

There is a protocol that says only one return allowed, so at least you can't do it over and over and over. I'll reiterate, I don't know why, of it's as instant as they say, that they don't just offer a trial at purchase like they do with premium. I think they would sell way more. Especially to folks like me who don't have a sales center where I can test drive a car.

 

[jfinephilly]

When we bought the FSD upgrade, we knew it went with the car rather than us, so like it or not, there you go.

However, if someone put me in charge of the world, my policy would be that it is the seller's choice.

1. You can leave the software license with the car, thus increasing its market value and having it be something your buyer would enjoy. Maybe you're not even buying another Tesla at the time. (I know--hard to imagine.)
2. You can opt to take the license with you. When you sell your old Tesla, it doesn't have FSD. And you can transfer your license to your new Tesla.

It's sort of like selling and buying houses. You can choose whether to take the fridge or leave it for your buyer. (Yes, I know a fridge isn't software.)

My issue is that there are now stated terms and conditions for this purchase in the app. I am not sure if Tesla’s extremely sparse website publishes terms and conditions or not.

 

[golfcart]

Ok feel free to flame me if need be.

I have my first big road trip in the 3 coming up next week. According to the upgrade screen in the app it states that I can request a refund for FSD within 48 hours of purchase. I figure this would be the best time for me to see if it's really something we could benefit from. Has anyone actually purchased then had Tesla refund FSD? With the amount of highway driving on this road trip I figured navigate on AP would be cool to test, and with my 85 yr old grandmother riding with us, summon would be nice to try if we get in a tight parking situation.

Just read the fine print, make sure you will be able to get refunded, and check that it doesn’t make you ineligible to ever purchase it again or something. I know if you cancel a vehicle order they won’t let you order the same vehicle for a year so they may have some similar stipulations with FSD.

Personally, I don’t think it’s worth it for $7k in its current form. Regular autopilot is great for road trips but I don’t really feel like the FSD features improve much over that since I’m still required to pay attention, keep my hands on the wheel, and be ready to intervene. But you never know you may really enjoy it.

 

[Turlejay]

Just read the fine print, make sure you will be able to get refunded, and check that it doesn’t make you ineligible to ever purchase it again or something. I know if you cancel a vehicle order they won’t let you order the same vehicle for a year so they may have some similar stipulations with FSD.

Personally, I don’t think it’s worth it for $7k in its current form. Regular autopilot is great for road trips but I don’t really feel like the FSD features improve much over that since I’m still required to pay attention, keep my hands on the wheel, and be ready to intervene. But you never know you may really enjoy it.

I really dont see it worth 7k either tbh, but I am curious to try some of the features to determine whether I wanna roll it into the next car loan. The Y is probably where we will land with an outside chance of an X. I can't see dropping 20% of the cars value for software.

 

[jonquiljo]

I never thought of it as abuse. After reading everyone's post here, I probably won't do it. That being said, if they didn't want returns, and a 2nd level authentication for purchases. Honestly, it's too easy to buy it by accident. All that being said, maybe they should just give everyone a free month of it at purchase, what's to lose? Maybe even a couple weeks. Maybe some people decide to buy it after trying it. How many people make such a large purchase without being able to try it?

Yes, this is the part I am most annoyed with. Most things purchased at website or via "Apps" need "verification. You go to Amazon, put something into your cart and check it out. With the Tesla app, the item is already there and your "check-mark" approving it for purchase it is already checked. Sorry, people - but this is totally sleazy!

If you saw that on the Internet, wouldn't you be annoyed? You go to Amazon and find a $7000 item in your cart and one button to push (perhaps accidentally) to buy it? No, that is not OK.

If Tesla is going to keep our credit cards on file- which they do if we purchase anything with them, then they should not put a $7000 item in our "app" cart with a single button to check out!

Frankly, buying FSD shouldn't be a purchase option on the app at all. It should be available to purchase via the website only. The app should be a way to interact with your Tesla, not buy things. I have a stealth, so I don't know how power boost options are sold - but I assume they are sold via the website.

Bottom line, there should NOT be any accidental way to buy FSD.

 

[Turlejay]

I'm now also curious that if it takes them 5 business days to reverse the charge on my credit card, does fsd remain on the car?

Also, if the car isn't connected to WiFi for awhile, will it update and remove fsd if I have update over 4g turned off?

Things that make you go hmmmmm