TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Trip Planner range estimate with 22" wheels

Discussion in 'Model X: Battery & Charging' started by ToddS, Jan 19, 2017.

  1. ToddS

    ToddS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Messages:
    210
    Location:
    Jupiter, FL
    I know your Tesla "knows" which MX you have (color/model/etc), but does it know which wheels?

    When the car calculates a trip for you or how much battery you will have left when you reach a SC or your destination, does it simply use an average wheel or is it based upon your exact car's wheels?

    I have read that the 22"s don't cause a huge difference in range, but there is that disclaimer on the order website. Just curious if folks have found it is "more off" (I understand the trip planner generally overestimates the range) with the 22"s. I looked around before posting to see if this was addressed (sorry if I missed it).
     
  2. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,901
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Tesla states that the 22" wheels will impact range by 10-15% :cool:

    Model X range.PNG
     
    • Informative x 1
  3. ToddS

    ToddS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Messages:
    210
    Location:
    Jupiter, FL
    Yes, that is what I meant by the "disclaimer on the website". ;) However, others in this forum have reported less impact.

    My question is different (and I realize it is just an academic question, but I was curious): Does the car's trip planner take into account the 22" wheels when calculating range/battery left when you reach your destination? Or does it simply use an average wheel size?
     
  4. aesculus

    aesculus Still Trying to Figure this All Out

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,514
    Location:
    Northern California
    I think the in car trip planner uses your recent range (efficiency) and then adjusts accordingly in real-time as you are driving that leg.

    So if you started planning and the recent (historical?) average was 350 Wh/mi it would use that. Then after a few minutes if it looked like you were consuming 400 Wh/mi it would recalculate and let you know what your new arrival SOC would be if you continued at that rate.

    You can experiment with this by adjusting your speed in route and watch the estimated reserve SOC change.

    Other than elevation changes, I am not sure it does any more math than that outside of using your car's efficiency. The non car trip planners can be different. Some of them are quite sophisticated in how they calculate possible consumption, and at least one of them does something similar as the car does.
     
  5. jmcclureXPA

    jmcclureXPA Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Harrisburg, PA
    This is a great question for me. I have an X 90 on order with 22" wheels. The owner advisor assured me that I could do a 190 mile round trip in the most extreme temps with the heat on through the PA mountains. I am really going to be dissappointed if I have to sweat this trip out that I do 10 times per year and/or drive 55 mph with the heat off?

    Any current owner help would be appreciated. I probably have 2 or 3 days before it's not an option to change from the 90 to 100. Don't mean to hijack the thread. Just hoping to stay with the same theme with added clarification on "real world" "extreme condition" 70 mph AP driving range. TY
     
  6. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Images on the screen of the car are accurate to your configuration (per your window sticker). If your car came with 21s (Model S) or 22s (Model X), the images in the dash and 17" display mimic this. One can only assume that it would then also know the efficiencies per it.

    However, the image that @FlatSix911 posted above is actually no longer valid. Tesla has long since removed the 10-15% efficiency loss comments, and that is backed up with real world data here on these forums. Plenty of users have posted that they don't see a very substantial variation, so I would expect you'll find the same driving (read: not much difference between 20 vs 22 wheels on the X)

    That said, @aesculus posted above about the car using recent efficiency numbers. In my 2+ years of Tesla owner experience, I'm convinced that the car saves data on recent efficiency, with some buffer for weather. There was an article a year ago about how the car would start to factor in elevation changes, weather, etc. Does it work? Not 100% by any means. Example: I just sold a 2016 Model S 70D and during my drive to Chicago (about 360 miles total from Cleveland, Ohio) there were a few segments where I'd leave a supercharger and the car said I'd arrive with 20% remaining, but I arrived with only 11% remaining.

    Why would it be off by 9%? There was a lot of snow, a head wind, and it was below freezing. Although the car probably did its best to include some of this, I doubt it really actually downloads weather along the route from Tesla. Instead, my guess, it takes the ambient current temp at your current location, the elevation from Google, and that is it. But, I've owned 4 variations of Model S (85 RWD, 60 RWD, 85D, 70D) and it does seem to account for battery size, etc. So let's just hope/assume that the 22s are factored in too-- though as noted above, the 20 vs 22 difference may be slim enough that Tesla doesnt actually alter the estimates for them (who knows, it is all speculation here anyohw!)

    From what I've seen people post, the Model X with 22" wheels gets at worse 380-420 wh/mi and as good as 340-360 in some areas. Assuming you got as bad as 420 wh/mi and you had a 190 mile trip, you would use just shy of 80 kWh of total battery. (420*190/1000 = 79.8 kWh of energy to travel 190 miles). I dont acquire my Model X until 6 days from now, but I've had a few Model S vehicles, with 19, 20 and 21 inch wheels. You should be fine--- but still, plan to do the speed limit or 5 over at most. If you start going 10+ MPH over the speed limit, you will see a severe range drop, and that could start to make your trip more difficult. Doing that trip in the summer you'll be fine-- in the winter, it will be closer to your limit, but feasible (just be sure to leave at 100%-- especially during the coldest weather!)
     
    • Like x 1
  7. balefire

    balefire Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I have done a 200 mile trip with my old MS 85 and now my MX P100 several times a year. There is no way you can make 190 miles in the winter with only 257 range unless you drive really slow.

    Even with my P100 MX it is too close in the winter, so I stop by a supercharger for 10 min
     
  8. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,901
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Unfortunately, Incorrect information was posted above ... there is a real range difference between the Model X 20" and 22" wheels.
    Tesla also has a range calculator that shows the estimated range for difference between 19" and 21" wheels for the Model S.

    Model S | Tesla

    upload_2017-1-29_20-50-16.png
     
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  9. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Strongly disagree. I average 30,000 miles per year of total driving, and we've been 100% electric and 100% Tesla since December 2014. That equates to over 75,000 total logged miles in Model S vehicles. That includes 19" - 20" - 21" wheels/tires combinations. Both OEM and Aftermarket. As you can see in the link you provided above, the 19 vs 21 difference is only 2% if you compare the numbers when you switch between.

    There are literally dozens of threads on these forums, and you can probably easily find people on both sides of the efficiency camp, though as of late there are more threads than not where people have swapped between the 20 vs 22 wheels (on a Model X) with no real change in efficiency. As a matter of fact, when you add the 22s to your Model X on the Tesla.com web site, you'll notice even they, the manufacturer, have removed the claim that once read you would see a "10-15% loss" -- so why did they remove that message? Because indeed their findings (likely) indicate the loss isn't as bad as originally, mathematically calculated.

    Furthermore, using the calculator you have directed people to above is a "best guess" because it doesn't account for elevation, variation in tire pressures and types/grades etc. Still, the bigger issue isn't tire size (less than 5% variance in my personal experiences between wheel size, tire type, etc).-- the bigger issue is ambient temperature, followed by speed, followed by changes in elevation. Dropping speed 5-10 MPH can easily add 10% of range. Temperature being below freezing versus just above, I have seen 10-15% range increase because of that--- so the guy wanting to do 190 miles in a 90D might do it just fine above freezing, but not below. It is less likely his issue with be due to 22" wheels/tires, and highly more likely his/her inability to reach the 190 desired miles range will be due to temps, and travel velocity.

    But again, these are just my personal experiences ... and admittedly 99% of them are with a Model S. I don't pickup my Model X until Saturday, but I do read these forums enough to have seen some interesting data points on both sides of the 22" wheel efficiency argument ... :p
     
  10. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,901
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Bottom line... you just proved my point that there is a range penalty for larger wheels :cool:

     
  11. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio
    And never did I say there wasn't a range penalty. But I did say there was "not much difference" and 2% is definitely extremely minimal. Actually, I get worse wh/mi with my 19" Snow Tires (which are not rated LRR) versus my 21" Summer Tires (which are rated LRR). Also, because of the cold temps, the PSI often drops below my ideal, making them less efficient. And, of course, the heater runs more constantly and so on and so forth (thermal dynamics, etc).

    So again, to the OPs question, the variance of 19/21 (S) or 20/22 (X) is 2% for the former per Tesla's site, unknown for the latter, and ultimately one of the lesser important factors here. Driving closer to the speed limit (read: slower) may actually help on longer trips, where wh/mi matters more than travel speeds. You said there was a "real" difference between -- to me, 2% isn't a notable difference when head wind, and cold temps, have shown me on 19s to lose 10% range -- while driving. (My trip to Chicago I left the supercharger saying I'd have 20% at next charger, and arrived with 11%, and the speed was set to at most 5mph over the limit). This is not typical on the 21s in the summer, so again, weather matters more than wheels is what I'm getting at here for sake of the OP.
     
  12. goneskiian

    goneskiian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,404
    Location:
    Bellevue WA
    Where are all these X owners reporting no real range loss with 22" wheels? I've tracked every entry in two threads regarding lifetime Wh/m and the difference is real and significant. 357 for 20's and 422 for 22's.
     
    • Informative x 2
  13. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio
    You found the thread already --- haha! I just saw you post, here:
    Model X Energy Consumption

    So based on that, you obviously found the thread I'm talking about. But then, as you linked, there is this thread:
    Model X: Average Wh/mile Tracker

    Someone needs to create a shared google spreadsheet or something. It would be nice to chart this info based on:
    Battery size (60 vs 75 vs 90 vs 100)
    Wheel Size (20 vs 22)
    Tire Type (All Season vs Summer vs Snow/Winter)
    Ambient Temperature
    Other pertinent factors (elevation changes, etc)

    What is interesting to me is how big a variance there is as you noted... 350s to 420s.... that is a HUGE variance. I've owned 5 Tesla Model S vehicles as noted, and my variance was never that huge. Driving in the winter would see 340-350 wh/mi sure --- and summer 290 wh/mi on the best-end (long trip, cruise control, 65-75 degrees F outside). Which makes me wonder if those X variations have to do with California vs Midwest/Northeast, etc etc. As per your reply on the other thread, we need more data (wheel size, ambient temperature etc-- too many variables).

    FWIW, I'll do my best to log my 1,200 miles Saturday/Sunday/Monday and reply here with my 22" wheel driving from Florida to Ohio. I'll be starting in 70 degree FL weather ending in 25 degree Ohio weather. :)
     
    • Like x 1
  14. ToddS

    ToddS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Messages:
    210
    Location:
    Jupiter, FL
    It's almost as cold today in Florida as it sounds like it is in Ohio. ;)
     
    • Funny x 1
  15. goneskiian

    goneskiian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,404
    Location:
    Bellevue WA
    I have been tracking by wheel size (obviously :p). Admittedly, we don't have very many 22" wheel entries compared to 20" entries (11 vs. 51). Yes, also tracking by location and tire type would also be good but more than I want to take on.

    Personally, I switched to 20" wheels with a mild winter tire in early December, but with the winter we've had (much colder than normal) I've seen no change in Wh/m (reset the B tripmeter to track it). I've also not done any longer steady speed trips since then.

    Cheers!
     
    • Informative x 1
  16. goneskiian

    goneskiian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,404
    Location:
    Bellevue WA
    I should add that with the 20" wheels averaging the same as in the exceptionally cold winter we've had as the 22's did all summer is pretty telling in itself considering cold (sub 50 or so) has about the same hit as the 22's were said to have over the 20's.
     
  17. jmcclureXPA

    jmcclureXPA Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Harrisburg, PA
    Thanks for the info and sharing your experience!
     
  18. jmcclureXPA

    jmcclureXPA Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Harrisburg, PA
    Thanks for response! I appreciate the insight and data!
     
  19. Pwdr Extreme

    Pwdr Extreme Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Location:
    Bozeman, MT
    I can answer your question with a direct, apples to apples personal experience. First, NO, you can not do 190 miles in "real world extreme conditions" with the heat on in the mountains driving 70 mph. I put 2,000 miles on a P100DL with 22" wheels in extreme weather in the mountains of Idaho and Montana. Considering the P100 should have slightly more range than your 90 (at least equal to) I can tell you there is virtually no chance of making it 190 miles in those conditions. You would have to drive 55-60mph and even then it's doubtful. I drove 140 miles losing 1,700' in elevation starting with a rated range of 270 miles (higher than a 100% charge on your 90) and arrived with 21 miles left. That means I used 249 rated miles to drive 140 miles downhill in extreme conditions. On the way home I was obviously climbing starting wth 267 miles of range. I had to stop and charge, no chance of making it the 140 miles.

    My 90D with 20" wheels gets considerably better mileage. Last week I did the same drive only I started from home instead of the supercharger meaning the trip was 155 miles. I left with 260 miles rated range and arrived with 75 miles range. The temps were about 25 degrees warmer, but still below freezing. On the way home I left with 240 miles rated and arrived at the supercharger 140 miles away with 17 rated miles left.

    In the P100DL with 22's I had to stop and supercharge three times between Salt Lake and home (450 miles) in my 90D with 20's I only had to charge twice, in very similar weather conditions.

    I realize the performance motor draws a little more power, but I'd think the difference between the 90 battery and the 100 battery would more than make up for that. So the fact that my 90D gets substantially better mileage than the P100D I would have to attribute to the 20 vs. 22" wheels.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 2
  20. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,901
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Thank you for telling it like it is ... range is impacted with 22" wheels :cool:

     
    • Like x 2

Share This Page