Trip Planner range estimate with 22" wheels

[jmcclureXPA]

I can answer your question with a direct, apples to apples personal experience. First, NO, you can not do 190 miles in "real world extreme conditions" with the heat on in the mountains driving 70 mph. I put 2,000 miles on a P100DL with 22" wheels in extreme weather in the mountains of Idaho and Montana. Considering the P100 should have slightly more range than your 90 (at least equal to) I can tell you there is virtually no chance of making it 190 miles in those conditions. You would have to drive 55-60mph and even then it's doubtful. I drove 140 miles losing 1,700' in elevation starting with a rated range of 270 miles (higher than a 100% charge on your 90) and arrived with 21 miles left. That means I used 249 rated miles to drive 140 miles downhill in extreme conditions. On the way home I was obviously climbing starting wth 267 miles of range. I had to stop and charge, no chance of making it the 140 miles.

My 90D with 20" wheels gets considerably better mileage. Last week I did the same drive only I started from home instead of the supercharger meaning the trip was 155 miles. I left with 260 miles rated range and arrived with 75 miles range. The temps were about 25 degrees warmer, but still below freezing. On the way home I left with 240 miles rated and arrived at the supercharger 140 miles away with 17 rated miles left.

In the P100DL with 22's I had to stop and supercharge three times between Salt Lake and home (450 miles) in my 90D with 20's I only had to charge twice, in very similar weather conditions.

I realize the performance motor draws a little more power, but I'd think the difference between the 90 battery and the 100 battery would more than make up for that. So the fact that my 90D gets substantially better mileage than the P100D I would have to attribute to the 20 vs. 22" wheels.

Thanks for the info! I appreciate the time and the real world conditions and your personal experience! Thanks again!!!

 

[arijaycomet]

I realize the performance motor draws a little more power, but I'd think the difference between the 90 battery and the 100 battery would more than make up for that. So the fact that my 90D gets substantially better mileage than the P100D I would have to attribute to the 20 vs. 22" wheels.

90D vs P100D isn't a fair comparison, especially if you're also changing wheels. Why?

Per Tesla.com web site:
MX 90D = 257 miles
MX 100D = 295 miles
MX P100D = 289 miles

So according to that comparison, going from a 90D to a P100D should add 32 miles. If you're saying the wh/mi (which you failed to post here) was the same, then we'd have something more interesting to discuss. If that were the case then there is an 11% loss for the 22s. But it doesn't work that way. There are countless threads (mostly in the Model S forums) about how the Performance cars use more power across the entire "throttle input" span. Even driving at the same speed, as you said, the motor draws more power.

Do you have wh/mi data for the trips you discussed above? That would be a more interesting figure to compare versus "how many times you charged" which is relative to many factors (elevation, weather, PSI in the tires, etc). Also, so many people forget to compare tire pressure--- which can make a relatively unique difference in wh/mi figures across both 20s and 22s.

I'm not disagreeing with your data. I'm simply saying that by going from a 90D to a P100D you cannot alone assess that difference to the tires, based on the 32 miles that Tesla themselves show on their site (Delta).

**EDIT** --- if indeed the 22-inch wheels create an 11% loss in throughput in wh/mi data- then yes, a 90D with 20s would have the same range as a P100D with 20-inch wheels -- with all other variables being the same. Only real way to test that would be same day, same roads, same speed, similar tire pressures (i.e.: both at suggested specs from door sticker) etc. Comparing two vehicles on diferent days without showing ambient temps, travel speeds, etc is not really accurate data collection IMO

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

When I returned the P100DL with 22" wheels, my average wh/mi was 498 for just over 2,000 miles. During my extreme trip, the wh/mi was 584 on the way down and 698 on the way back. This was in roughly 20 below zero conditions.

My car currently has 1,709 miles on it with an average use of 420 wh/mi. That's 16% better economy. I feel pretty confident the performance motor does NOT draw 16% more energy. Especially since Tesla only rates a P100D at 2% worse than a 100D. 289/295.

In my opinion, that puts the extra draw of the 22" wheels right about 14%

Certainly this was not in the EXACT same conditions, obviously they were separate days. However the conditions were VERY similar, and they were the EXACT same roads. Considering that is averaged out over a couple thousand miles, I feel it is pretty accurate.

FYI, I am doing the same trip again today, it's snowing and below zero so fairly similar conditions once again. I will report back with my wh/mi for the trip down and the trip home.

 

[Cellsaver]

I have a P90DX with 22". Yesterday I left the Lexington Ky supercharger when it said I had enough charge to reach the London Ky supercharger. As soon as I hit the road I get the message that I must drive less than 75 mph to reach my destination. Speed limit is 75. Ugh...

Turns out I was able to drive 80 and make it, but for a newbie like me it definitely ratchets up the range anxiety. Next time I will hang around for an extra 10 minutes at the supercharger.

 

[arijaycomet]

@Pwdr Extreme thanks for the info-- good reply. Still, one thing to consider here is the temperatures you're talking about. Here in Ohio we get really bad temps-- and I've been through 3 winters now with Tesla. Based on your join-date of Nov-30-2016, and your car listed as a MX 90D with a 300xx VIN, this is probably the end of just your first winter of ownership. One thing to consider is that where you live (MT) and the mountains/hills plus the extreme cold temps play a huge factor. I don't doubt that winter temps + hills = bad wh/mi

That said, your signature lists a 90D but you talked about a 2,000+ mile trip in a P100D+L -- was that a loaner? Also, the 2% range you talk about doesn't add up-- unless your car is a 100D? Since your signature says 90D then it is actually 257/289 = 11% difference. In other words, Tesla claims the 90D that you list as owning versus a P100D would have an 11% drop in overall range in that direction. But again, too many variables here. Also, what tires were on the 22s you drove?

Be aware, Tesla is actually shipping two VERY different tires on the 22s. If you have a non-P MX then you should have gotten Pirelli all season tires on your MX. However, if you have a P90D/P100D MX with 22s, you should have gotten performance tires. The latter has worse rolling, and in turn, will more greatly reduce range. So if you are comparing a P100D+L on 22s then you are comparing performance tires to your 90D (100D?) 20" all-season tires. The rolling resistance there could easily be 3-5% or more depending.

Also, here in Ohio we had a really REALLY cold winter last year. Not much snow, but temps were -10 F or worse for a week at a time. During that time my two Tesla Model S vehicles would see horrid wh/mi -- about 50% worse than the best summer figures. 120-150 miles of range was not uncommon. And that was on 19" Snow tires that were purposefully bought with Low Rolling Resistance (LRR) rating. So if you're talking about 20 below freezing or single-digit temps, that plays a huge roll here, regardless of tire type, wheel size, etc. Just food for thought.

 

[arijaycomet]

I have a P90DX with 22". Yesterday I left the Lexington Ky supercharger when it said I had enough charge to reach the London Ky supercharger. As soon as I hit the road I get the message that I must drive less than 75 mph to reach my destination. Speed limit is 75. Ugh...

Turns out I was able to drive 80 and make it, but for a newbie like me it definitely ratchets up the range anxiety. Next time I will hang around for an extra 10 minutes at the supercharger.

Interesting data. My drive Saturday/Sunday/Monday will be from Tampa, FL up to Cleveland, OH. I'll be driving via I-75 the entire trip more or less. So I'll be making that same stretch that you did. Word to the wise-- as a Tesla owner for nearly 3 years now, one thing I've learned is that you should always charge 5+ minutes extra at the supercharger. Tesla's algorithm seems to be "tight" at best-- and like you said, the data adjusts while you drive. That buffer is sometimes less important in warmer/summer temps-- but in winter, if the car says "you may now continue on your trip" -- don't leave just yet, sit tight 3-5 more minutes, that extra juice might be helpful IMO

 

[Cellsaver]

Interesting data. My drive Saturday/Sunday/Monday will be from Tampa, FL up to Cleveland, OH. I'll be driving via I-75 the entire trip more or less. So I'll be making that same stretch that you did. Word to the wise-- as a Tesla owner for nearly 3 years now, one thing I've learned is that you should always charge 5+ minutes extra at the supercharger. Tesla's algorithm seems to be "tight" at best-- and like you said, the data adjusts while you drive. That buffer is sometimes less important in warmer/summer temps-- but in winter, if the car says "you may now continue on your trip" -- don't leave just yet, sit tight 3-5 more minutes, that extra juice might be helpful IMO

Good news is there is rarely anyone at either of these superchargers. London has a nice new Cheddars that just opened and a cool little visitor center w/ local crafts, and Lexington has a huge Meijer.

 

[arijaycomet]

For those following this thread, some good data/links:

OEM 22" Wheels on a PERFORMANCE car likely shipped with:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Eagle+F1+Asymmetric+3&partnum=635WR2F1A3XLSCT&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&frontTire=635WR2F1A3XLSCT&rearTire=835WR2F1A3XLSCT&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R

OEM 22" Wheels on a Non-Performance Model X should have:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero&partnum=635WR2SCOR0XLNCS&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&frontTire=635WR2SCOR0XLNCS&rearTire=835WR2SCOR0XLNCS&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R

And if you want to geek out and read more about rolling resistance:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=177
and
https://www.nap.edu/read/11620/chapter/6#82

Of course there are still other variables here. But the 420 vs 300 tread rating, the age of the tires, and other factors such as pressure/inflation, elevation, ambient temp obviously all matter. I just was doing more reading and wanted to share this with y'all!

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

@Pwdr Extreme thanks for the info-- good reply. Still, one thing to consider here is the temperatures you're talking about. Here in Ohio we get really bad temps-- and I've been through 3 winters now with Tesla. Based on your join-date of Nov-30-2016, and your car listed as a MX 90D with a 300xx VIN, this is probably the end of just your first winter of ownership. One thing to consider is that where you live (MT) and the mountains/hills plus the extreme cold temps play a huge factor. I don't doubt that winter temps + hills = bad wh/mi

That said, your signature lists a 90D but you talked about a 2,000+ mile trip in a P100D+L -- was that a loaner? Also, the 2% range you talk about doesn't add up-- unless your car is a 100D? Since your signature says 90D then it is actually 257/289 = 11% difference. In other words, Tesla claims the 90D that you list as owning versus a P100D would have an 11% drop in overall range in that direction. But again, too many variables here. Also, what tires were on the 22s you drove?

Be aware, Tesla is actually shipping two VERY different tires on the 22s. If you have a non-P MX then you should have gotten Pirelli all season tires on your MX. However, if you have a P90D/P100D MX with 22s, you should have gotten performance tires. The latter has worse rolling, and in turn, will more greatly reduce range. So if you are comparing a P100D+L on 22s then you are comparing performance tires to your 90D (100D?) 20" all-season tires. The rolling resistance there could easily be 3-5% or more depending.

Also, here in Ohio we had a really REALLY cold winter last year. Not much snow, but temps were -10 F or worse for a week at a time. During that time my two Tesla Model S vehicles would see horrid wh/mi -- about 50% worse than the best summer figures. 120-150 miles of range was not uncommon. And that was on 19" Snow tires that were purposefully bought with Low Rolling Resistance (LRR) rating. So if you're talking about 20 below freezing or single-digit temps, that plays a huge roll here, regardless of tire type, wheel size, etc. Just food for thought.

Okay, let me try to clarify everything for you

The P100DL was a loaner I drove from January 2, 2017 to Jan 13th, during that time I drove just over 2,000 miles. Temperature was never above freezing, often below zero. It had 22" wheels, and I'm assuming performance tires as it wasn't even close to the snow and ice driving capability of my 90D with 20" all weather tires. I picked up my 90D Jan 13th and have driven 1,700 miles so far. The conditions have been very, very similar. Never above freezing, at one point it was 31 below zero. Yes, Ohio can get cold, however Montana is colder and we have mountains. Remember the OP asked about extreme conditions and mountain driving, I felt my situation is exactly that, extreme conditions and mountain driving, so I feel qualified to give the OP a very accurate description of what he can expect.

When I was discussing the range you referenced you misunderstood me. I quoted Tesla's published range of a P100D at 289 miles vs. their range of a 100D at 295 miles. Thus showing Tesla predicts a 2% loss of range for the Performance motor on an otherwise identical car. Therefore when you pointed out a Performance car with 22's isn't a fair comparison to a non performance with 20's, I said my actual difference was 16%. Taking into account Tesla feels the Performance motor is a 2% loss, I again state the 22's are costing the other 14%.

I agree tire compound makes a difference, but not 14%. However I really don't understand what it is you are trying to accomplish with your posts? Are you saying 22" wheels do not suffer a range hit? If so, then I strongly disagree. If that isn't what you are saying then I am certainly misunderstanding you and I apologize.

At any rate, I can personally guarantee the P100D I drove with 22" wheels would absolutely NOT make it 190 miles in winter conditions. I tried. Therefore I feel it's a pretty safe bet a 90D with 22" wheels won't stand a chance of making it 190 miles in winter mountain driving at 70mph.

 

[arijaycomet]

@Pwdr Extreme -- thanks for the clarification. You are right that I was mistaken on your math for the reference of the 14% --- though I take what Tesla says with a grain of salt, I better now comprehend your subtraction and division. My experience (having owned a half dozen Tesla vehicles, 75,000+ miles later) is that the rated range is rarely accurate. As a matter of fact, in Ohio where we don't have mountains, I still find getting the rated range difficult save for those days where the HVAC system doesn't need to be on, and you're holding a constant speed.

(Of course it is my understanding that the EPA rating works like that of the MPG ratings, meaning 55mph constant speed-- so it is a bit of a joke anyhow... but I digress).

As you pointed out user @jmcclureXPA was looking for data about 22" wheels and throughput. Your data is FAR more useful than anything I can contribute thus far, as my ownership has been exclusively Model S related. But, to answer your question as to my goal-- my hope is to find more "data points" here on the forums. And what I'm finding is that the data that does exist is far lacking in context.

There is another thread (I think it is linked elsewhere in this thread) that people are posting wh/mi data. But some of the people fail to mention 20 vs 22, most folks don't talk about elevation changes, tire type, and worse yet, climate. Again, my 3 years of ownership tells me that driving in 50+ degree winter in California versus 20 degree F in Ohio versus mountains & below freezing Montana, the figures will all be drastically different, even if the car/wheels/tires were the same style/size/etc.

Another thing I've seen is driving style. We have had 2 Tesla Model S vehicles in the garage for 2 of the last 3 years. When I drive my wife's car I get 10-20% worse wh/mi compared to her overall (speaking in broad generalities here) for around town driving. But on the freeway, I can actually do slightly better than her because I use cruise control and hold a more constant speed (she hates cruise control, and autopilot). Speed as a constant, but also acceleration, will hinder that.

TL;DR - There is no doubt that a larger wheel will have more mass to get into motion and decrease wh/mi efficiencies. However, Tesla has long since removed their "10-15% loss" statement from their web site. Why? Based on the data/reading I've done here as of late, I suspect that is because they were unable to substantiate this data. I've emailed Tesla as of this morning and will report back if/when they reply. In the meantime, while the loss is there, the data on these forums appears to be inconclusive to place a solid value on what that delta may actually be (given the missing variables from said data)

EDIT--
PS: The other thread in question has data from 340 wh/mi to 480 wh/mi --- and there are people with 22s at the low end, and people with 20s at the high end, further invalidating the data and making it hard to be fully conclusive.

 

[arijaycomet]

Here is what Tesla replied when I asked them what the range loss was on the 22" wheels/tires. Interesting, huh?

 

[goneskiian]

For those following this thread, some good data/links:
OEM 22" Wheels on a Non-Performance Model X should have:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero&partnum=635WR2SCOR0XLNCS&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&frontTire=635WR2SCOR0XLNCS&rearTire=835WR2SCOR0XLNCS&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R

I don't know about others, but my non-P 22" tires are actually these...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?message=singleSize&tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero+Asimmetrico&frontTire=635WR2SCOR0AXLV2&rearTire=835WR2SCOR0AXLV2&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2016&autoModel=Model+X+75D&autoModClar=265/35-22F+285/35-22R

Edit: Then again, I took delivery in late June so it's likely they have changed tires they're delivering at least once or twice!

 

[goneskiian]

Thanks for your input @Pwdr Extreme. This is some really great real world "Extreme" conditions for sure!

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

My car headed down from Bozeman to Billings averaged 430 wh/mi. Temp -10 to 0. 4800 elev start, 3100 end. 75 mph. Two substantial mountain passes along the way. Calm wind.
Headed home 523 wh/mi temp -20 to -5.
Vs. 584 and 698 wh/mi in the P100D with 22's in slightly colder conditions.

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

I'm actually sitting at the Billings supercharger once again today during another identical trip. This time temp has been in the teens. 430wh/mi once again. Kinda surprising it is the exact same since its warmer today.

 

[Tomnook]

90D vs P100D isn't a fair comparison, especially if you're also changing wheels. Why?

Per Tesla.com web site:
MX 90D = 257 miles
MX 100D = 295 miles
MX P100D = 289 miles

So according to that comparison, going from a 90D to a P100D should add 32 miles. If you're saying the wh/mi (which you failed to post here) was the same, then we'd have something more interesting to discuss. If that were the case then there is an 11% loss for the 22s. But it doesn't work that way. There are countless threads (mostly in the Model S forums) about how the Performance cars use more power across the entire "throttle input" span. Even driving at the same speed, as you said, the motor draws more power.

Do you have wh/mi data for the trips you discussed above? That would be a more interesting figure to compare versus "how many times you charged" which is relative to many factors (elevation, weather, PSI in the tires, etc). Also, so many people forget to compare tire pressure--- which can make a relatively unique difference in wh/mi figures across both 20s and 22s.

I'm not disagreeing with your data. I'm simply saying that by going from a 90D to a P100D you cannot alone assess that difference to the tires, based on the 32 miles that Tesla themselves show on their site (Delta).

**EDIT** --- if indeed the 22-inch wheels create an 11% loss in throughput in wh/mi data- then yes, a 90D with 20s would have the same range as a P100D with 20-inch wheels -- with all other variables being the same. Only real way to test that would be same day, same roads, same speed, similar tire pressures (i.e.: both at suggested specs from door sticker) etc. Comparing two vehicles on diferent days without showing ambient temps, travel speeds, etc is not really accurate data collection IMO

Thanks for the figures from Tesla.com. I have an MX P100D which on, a 100% charge, only shows a range of 267 miles (10% fewer than spec.) and I have 22" wheels. :-(
So far the kWh consumption has been massively more than the MS P90D I traded in. Only 450 miles on the clock so far but the kWh range seems to be 450-550 (from Teslafi) whereas with the S it was 325-425. Winter here though so the heater is always turned on. From memory, I'm sure my S charged to 300+ miles. The 32a home charger only charges the X at 17-18mph whereas the S charged at 21-22mph! Bizarre.

 

[goneskiian]

Thanks for the figures from Tesla.com. I have an MX P100D which on, a 100% charge, only shows a range of 267 miles (10% fewer than spec.) and I have 22" wheels. :-(
So far the kWh consumption has been massively more than the MS P90D I traded in. Only 450 miles on the clock so far but the kWh range seems to be 450-550 (from Teslafi) whereas with the S it was 325-425. Winter here though so the heater is always turned on. From memory, I'm sure my S charged to 300+ miles. The 32a home charger only charges the X at 17-18mph whereas the S charged at 21-22mph! Bizarre.

I don't think the Rated Range displayed has anything to do with the wheels you have on the vehicle. Why it's displaying less than is advertised is a good question.

Regarding the higher consumption, yes, winter will adversely affect that, but don't forget you're also breaking in brand new tires and that will always suck down some extra electrons. It should improve as the tires get older and the weather gets warmer. It usually takes about 1000 miles to break in new tires.

As for the charging rate, you won't get as many "miles per hour" of charging simply due to the fact that the X won't go as far on the same amount of electricity as the more efficient S. If that makes sense. You can also think of it in terms of filling a ICE vehicle with gas. A larger less efficient vehicle won't get as many miles per (pick your timeframe) while you're filling it either. Clear as mud!

 

[Tomnook]

I don't think the Rated Range displayed has anything to do with the wheels you have on the vehicle. Why it's displaying less than is advertised is a good question.

Regarding the higher consumption, yes, winter will adversely affect that, but don't forget you're also breaking in brand new tires and that will always suck down some extra electrons. It should improve as the tires get older and the weather gets warmer. It usually takes about 1000 miles to break in new tires.

As for the charging rate, you won't get as many "miles per hour" of charging simply due to the fact that the X won't go as far on the same amount of electricity as the more efficient S. If that makes sense. You can also think of it in terms of filling a ICE vehicle with gas. A larger less efficient vehicle won't get as many miles per (pick your timeframe) while you're filling it either. Clear as mud!

Thanks very much for your comments!

I checked a few more sites and it seems that the MX P100D I own actually has a rated range of 257 miles so I'm 10 miles better than that! Read here:
Tesla now offers a 100D Model S and Model X with extended range

 

[InsaneDriver]

How much does wheel weight factor in compared to wheel size? Many aftermarket 22"wheels advertise 40lbs savings over the factory 22" and depending upon tire selection you can save more (Conti extremecontact dws 06 weight 6lbs per tire less than the pirelli scorpion and 7 less than the Goodyear F1 asymmetric). So how much of a penalty would you pay with 22" that weigh less than even factory 20"?

 

[goneskiian]

How much does wheel weight factor in compared to wheel size? Many aftermarket 22"wheels advertise 40lbs savings over the factory 22" and depending upon tire selection you can save more (Conti extremecontact dws 06 weight 6lbs per tire less than the pirelli scorpion and 7 less than the Goodyear F1 asymmetric). So how much of a penalty would you pay with 22" that weigh less than even factory 20"?

It's definitely the weight that is the major factor here. Lighter is better for sure.