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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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Some antonio dude there mentioned you can only give short notice like this if there’s material information that can move the market - per SEC rules.

Is he talking out his ear?

Are you referring to Antonio Gracias the lead board guy? The lawyer? The chief investmnt officer of some fund?
Talking out of his ear or elsewhere, but if tis him, he shouldn't be talking at all. This is exactly the reason the SEC now requires an experienced securities attorney 'whose qualifications are not unacceptable to the SEC' be designated to review all social media and communications.
 
I noticed interesting thing with ratings. Here is the history by date.
Pay attention to the dates. 20 days no new ratings! They simply stopped.
This is big change from previous behaviour because ratings was big source of FUD!
Maybe Berenberg sealed it with 500$? :)


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Extremely unlikely IMHO: we do know that the Standard Range battery pack is finished, and that the new Grohmann machines are being installed to make them. The SR battery pack is lower weight and cheaper to build - both of which help margins.

Note that a lot of urban car use doesn't need medium or long range, and by offering Standard Range Tesla allows those customers to spend their money on other, higher margin options instead, such as AutoPilot which as a software product has a fixed development cost in the billions, but near 100% profit margin for every new unit sold.

It would also free up cell capacity to make more units, and to expand the Tesla Storage business.

In fact due to the mass reductions of the Standard Range battery pack we might even see lower capacity at introduction (50kWh instead of the 55kWh), which would further increase margins and would also allow an entry price below $35k.

Lowering the entry price would give Tesla protection against price based discrimination that many ICE-captured legislators are using to exclude Tesla from various incentives programs. (This is done in Germany, but also Connecticut, etc.)

Note how much demand expands in the new car market in advanced western economies by offering a lower entry price:

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In the $30k-$45k range there's an average of 0.5%-2.5% improvement in demand for every $1k reduction of the base price (!).

If we interpret that histogram then the effect on demand is huge:
  • For example by Lemur reducing the base from $49k to $45k the sustainably addressable market probably expanded by about ~4% of all car sales - plus a burst of pent-up demand probably twice that much. In the U.S. that's 4% of ~16m sales, i.e. 600K annual.
  • By reducing the entry price from $45k to $39k demand will increase by ~8% (!) - and note the very high jump of 1.25% (note: that percentage is of the total population, not all of whom buy a new car every year) at $40k - the effect of $39,999 sticker prices ... That would be about a market of 1,200K new car sales.
  • Going from $39k to $34k would unlock a demand bonanza: about +12% of demand unlocked. That's a price-accessible market of 1,800K units per year (!).
  • Note that the existing addressable market of Tesla, i.e. demand for all $49k+ sales combined is about ~20% of the total market. I.e. Lemur alone expanded Tesla's price-addressable market by about 20% (from 20% to 24%), and a $34,999 base model would double Tesla's addressable market from 20% to ~40%.
Even if we factor in that half of the consumers won't buy a sedan but want a SUV, that's very large numbers in the U.S. alone, and with the introduction of the Model Y Tesla it's going to get really crazy.

(Another factor is that as Tesla walks down the demand ladder at every significant reduction of the entry price a huge amount of pent-up demand is unlocked as well.)

Also note another effect: if we weigh sales by unit value, then revenue and profits market share of Tesla increases from 40% to about 60-70% of all sales (!). People think that most money is made at the lower value, higher unit count cars, but that's wrong - ~80% of the profits are generated with the $30k+ sales.

(Maybe this new car sales price distribution chart and its effects on Tesla's addressable market could be included in one of the nice charts of @ZachShahan? The chart is from the U.K. and was done in 2013 - but it more or less applies well to today's U.S. market too, because it's centered around the current $35k average new car transaction price in the U.S., and because median income distribution is similar between the U.K. and the U.S.)

I.e. by reducing the entry price from $49k to $34k Tesla can probably increase its addressable market to over 40% of all sales, which is meaningful price-competition with 6.4 million units per year sustained - and if they can capture a meaningful percentage of it like they did in all the higher price segments, they won't run out of demand for a decade if all they do is to sell in the U.S. ...

I.e. Tesla not introducing the SR would be a huge mistake, IMO.

Thanks! Do gas savings and incentives change the graph at all?
 
Maybe the strange timing is because they want to align it with some external event that might materially impact Tesla. Like a Saudi announcement related to Tesla Energy.
I agree. With all the Saudi negativity I think Tesla wants to control the narrative, if indeed there is a huge deal announced this week. I can’t think of any case where this ER news would be good shorts. We will see in 2 days.
 
One word. Sell.

To update. If we hold these levels I’m getting out of the remaining positions . If we get a pop after hours Wednesday at all it’s another sell. We’ll have a lower entry point between now and Q4 earnings.


Hmmm. I can think of plausible arguments for this... but which one are you basing your view on?

Are you expecting:
(1) short-seller / disinformation attacks, without much more long accumulation
(2) brainless "it's a bear market" selloffs of everything, without much more long accumulation
(3) something else?

Why do you think that positive Q3 earnings *won't* be a trigger for long accumulation? Or do you think the long accumulation will be sufficiently slow and under-the-radar to be non-price-moving? The Tencent and Saudi accumulations seem to have been price-moving.
 
My god -- it's just mechanically following GM. That's embarassing. Only major exception was Elon's seizure induced funding tweet. Honestly we ought to go out and hold hands with the shareholders of these other companies and rally together in a 'We are the World' fashion.

For those people saying they are happy holding TSLA in a recession be sure to notice this. I think we'd get smashed.
This is the sort of meaningless noise which is short-term trading. For a long-term holder who isn't overleveraged, it's possible to wait it out until people actually notice the earnings.

This can take years. I've seen it with other stocks. After the signs of improved profitability appear, it can literally take 3-5 years for the morons who do most stock trading to notice. Same in the other direction -- when the signs that a company is a hollow, decayed shell appear, it can take *10* years before the stock traders notice.
 
I won't be able to provide my full thesis till tomorrow. But, the gist is - from prior indications and this latest trickery, I'm more inclined to think they are going to try and kitchen sink it, rather than provide a knock it out of the park ER.

More detail tomorrow.
Makes no sense. Q2 was the kitchen-sink expenses quarter; there's nothing left to throw in.
 
I noticed interesting thing with ratings. Here is the history by date.
Pay attention to the dates. 20 days no new ratings! They simply stopped.

Are you sure the list is uptodate? For example coverage was recently initiated by the Macquarie Group, with a price target of $430.

But most analysts staying silent isn't entirely surprising: it's very hard to maintain a negative Tesla rating after the blockbuster Q3 delivery report. So they really had just two rational options: upgrade the rating and eat crow or stay silent, hoping that Tesla messes up Q3 financials. Think what you will of Sandy Munro, but the 'I have to eat crow' comment was a classic.

Many analysts apparently opted for 'staying silent'.

BTW., I'm curious how many analysts were waiting as much as possible before Q3 financials, before being forced to upgrade their ratings of TSLA a bit shortly before the earnings report. The next two days will tell...
 
To be fair Netflix isn’t attacked by Oil and fake news 24/7. And no one is talking any smack about Netflix, we’re giving you reasons why their stock is dropping.

It seems like classic short-sightedness to worry about Netflix because they're spending money on building up a library of content, or because they're cancelling individual shows, when subscriber counts and the amount subscribers pay goes up and up with no end in sight.

But I actually think the reason NFLX is down is the same as the reason AMZN and GOOG are down -- macro traders reacting to interest rate fears. (My family have farily-new positions in all three. They're all still above my purchase prices.)
 
No. I have no misunderstanding about how shorting can be misused. You've misunderstood what I've written.

Also, Fact Checking's illustration does NOT disagree with what MP3Mike wrote. Fact Checking's point was about the dilution effect of shorting. Not the character of shorting, which is what MP3Mike's illustration was about. That's what I'm trying to point out to you. I never disputed the effect of shorting, only that it's within the hedge fund's control. ALL the retail investors on this forum do NOT have the collective buying NOR lending power to affect the stock price in any way. If you saw their two posts as contradictory, then you've misunderstood what was written.

You're right that you never said "they were created from selling", but neither did I. It's a difference that matters here. You've repeated your misunderstanding immediately following in italics. "Normal" shorting shares are NOT created from the act of trading. They have to be borrowed from a current shareholder. Yes, they can be re-loaned by the new shareholders repeatedly, but the buyer at the other end needs to make the shares available for shorting as well. Naked shorting is different, has no such requirement, and IS illegal. If an exchange permits naked shorting, they run a huge liability risk.

Now a pair of shorts (normal ones) can buy and re-loan shares back to each other to depress the stock price further, but there's a cost to borrowing those shares and executing those trades (the broker collects both a lending fee as well as a trading fee), so at some point the cost to borrow isn't worth the potential profit of short-selling a stock. And yes, those shorts could sell and buy back the shares at progressively lower prices amongst themselves, but that strategy runs the risk of having a long add to their position to interrupt the cycle. Much like what happened today, when the shorts tried to depress the SP only to have long investors "buy the dip" to halt the fall and forced them to cover their short throughout the morning. The shorts broke even, while the long profited.

The reason that Elon's pissed (he used to be agnostic as he understood their market function) with short sellers, is because the shorts (Chanos et al) had become aggressive and have resorted to FUD, lies, and even illegal methods (insider trading) to depress and manipulate the stock price. It is the degenerative ability of money to encourage short sellers to misbehave (essentially showing the worst of humanity) that is pissing him off.

Which MP3Mike post are you referring to? The one where he leaves a cliffhanger? (I am waiting for the sequel)
I didn't even know there was a thesis to that post other than to say shorting can get convoluted and there are turns in that maze that make it an impractical system; he posited a scenario of high entanglement.

Not sure what your point is in all of this. This whole thread started when short troll Steve M (I think) made a random post defending short selling. I have been curious about the nuances of this and my sense was there's more to the story than meets the eye. So I began "investigating."

The go-to argument of troll M (and some others on here AND Jim Chanos in his attempted twitter refute to EM) is that there is no "dilution" because the # of shareholder votes and the dividend recipients don't change if a short sells a share to a long. That's a conflation and pivot tactic that avoids the point that there is a dilutive effect and downward pressure on SP. I feel quite confident after digesting various sides that this is the case.

Yes I'm still learning; thanks for pointing out that I don't know much. I'll simply defer to FC's post; that is my position; he articulated it much better than I ever could.
 
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there is no "dilution" because the # of shareholder votes and the dividend recipients don't change if a short sells a share to a long. That's a conflation and pivot tactic that avoids the point that there is a dilutive effect and downward pressure on SP.

That argument is indeed a misdirection: 99% of the utility of a TSLA share is to be able to buy and sell it.

Voting rights are mostly immaterial unless you own literally hundreds of thousands of shares, dividends are highly unlikely at this stage, and a printed stock certificate looks just as good for a single share. Also note that retail longs can still have all of these rights and if their stock got loaned out and shorted then whenever they request voting rights or a stock certificate the broker is going to transparently re-shuffle their borrowed stock to magically be present. Even the 'recall' of shares gives shorts 3 days to come up with some other source of shares to borrow.

I.e. the long positions created by shorting are de facto dilution in all but name.

So in that sense shorting of course diluted the pool of Tesla shares that can be bought and sold on the market, by 33 million shares.
 
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