Not sure if this has been posted here, but I'm reposting a few things from My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Ecotality filed for bankrupcy and intent to sell all assets....
KillaWhat said:
oakwcj said:
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Uh Oh - Ecotality Exploring Restructuring or Sale, Cites List of Challenges
- Thread starter ggies07
- Start date
Here's today's news. The bankruptcy auction is currently set for Oct 9th hearing. They have one offer of 3million from Tellus Power. They are asking for a bit delay on the hearing to see if they can get someone to top that bid. (Gee, I bet someone on this forum could even bid more than that. LOL!)
BTW, they have a new symbol since they are no longer on NASDAQ (ECTYQ)
http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stockmar...bid-to-open-bankruptcy-auction-20131007-00835
Charged EVs | CarCharging to purchase ECOtality’s Blink assets
"Blink Acquisition, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Car Charging Group, Inc. (OTCQB: CCGI) has submitted the winning bid to purchase the Blink charging network from ECOtality, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September. The deal makes Miami Beach-based CarCharging one of the world’s largest public charging networks."
"Blink Acquisition, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Car Charging Group, Inc. (OTCQB: CCGI) has submitted the winning bid to purchase the Blink charging network from ECOtality, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September. The deal makes Miami Beach-based CarCharging one of the world’s largest public charging networks."
ZBB
Emperor
Thanks for the update. Here's their pricing page for CG's existing network: Electric vehicle charging service ratesCarCharging
Get ready for a price increase... They charge by kWh where possible -- $0.49 per kWh. For hourly charging, it's $2.49 to $2.99 per hour. That's about 3x what Blink charged (assuming it wasn't one of the de-rated chargers).
Anybody have any experience with them?
I haven't actually used them, but their stations are most commonly found at Walgreens.
Yeah, it sucks that the price is going up compared to Blink, but the price being charged by the Blink network was obviously not sustainable. The Blink Member price at $1/hour loses money if charging at 30A in many situations with TOU pricing typical of a commercial installation.
I'd rather have expensive charging available when I need it than no charging at all. Most charging is still done at home so the average cost to drive electric is still very low.
Here' where the rubber meets the road (so to speak...). I seldom see anyone charging at the Blink chargers in the North Seattle area. Super low utilization. Maybe 1 out of 20 actually are in use. And some of those are free chargers. I am pretty sure the price increase will result in a decrease of already low usage.
I find the Level 2 J1772 30A chargers barely on this side of usable. 6kW yields about a 20 mph charge rate. I see only a few scenarios where this makes sense - when you are desperate (more on this) or overnight charging. Frankly, the only times I've used blink (or chargepoint) has been to basically get a decent parking spot. Not exactly what people had envisioned.
Personally, I think most of the 30A chargers are poorly placed. Walgreens? That makes no sense to me. I'm going to charge my car for 30 minutes while I run in to get Healthy and Happy? There is one outside of Puget Consumer's Coop. 45 minute charge while I shop? I just don't see it being a compelling use case. Better placement would be parking garages, hotels/motels and other longer term destinations. There are chargers at several park and ride lots - smarter but $2.49 times 8-9 seems like a deal breaker to me. Even $10 is probably too much. I think most of these chargers will go away. Only ones having reasonable utilization will stay. Expect them to disappear from Walgreens.
As to desperation, this is where I think L2 chargers have some value. However, by definition, desperation scenarios are fairly uncommon. I don't see the company actually making much revenue from that.
On the issue of costs, 1kWh from Seattle City Light at residential rates is a bit less than 12 cents. I get that there needs to be some profit in that but >300%?
There is nothing like economics to correct dumb thinking.
I find the Level 2 J1772 30A chargers barely on this side of usable. 6kW yields about a 20 mph charge rate. I see only a few scenarios where this makes sense - when you are desperate (more on this) or overnight charging. Frankly, the only times I've used blink (or chargepoint) has been to basically get a decent parking spot. Not exactly what people had envisioned.
Personally, I think most of the 30A chargers are poorly placed. Walgreens? That makes no sense to me. I'm going to charge my car for 30 minutes while I run in to get Healthy and Happy? There is one outside of Puget Consumer's Coop. 45 minute charge while I shop? I just don't see it being a compelling use case. Better placement would be parking garages, hotels/motels and other longer term destinations. There are chargers at several park and ride lots - smarter but $2.49 times 8-9 seems like a deal breaker to me. Even $10 is probably too much. I think most of these chargers will go away. Only ones having reasonable utilization will stay. Expect them to disappear from Walgreens.
As to desperation, this is where I think L2 chargers have some value. However, by definition, desperation scenarios are fairly uncommon. I don't see the company actually making much revenue from that.
On the issue of costs, 1kWh from Seattle City Light at residential rates is a bit less than 12 cents. I get that there needs to be some profit in that but >300%?
There is nothing like economics to correct dumb thinking.
ZBB
Emperor
Noticed this article from yesterday:
ChargePoint is offering incentives to commercial sites with Blink chargers to swap out equipment for their units... Implied that this is in connection with CarCharging -- but it wasn't completely clear...
ChargePoint Offers Blink Sites Up to $2,200 To Switch | PluginCars.com
ChargePoint is offering incentives to commercial sites with Blink chargers to swap out equipment for their units... Implied that this is in connection with CarCharging -- but it wasn't completely clear...
ChargePoint Offers Blink Sites Up to $2,200 To Switch | PluginCars.com
Tacket
Member
If they started installing higher amp stalls, I could see a use. I used one the other day to eek out a few extra comfort miles for a road trip while I was eating dinner. Something like 20 miles only, so probably could have done without. I almost never see them being used in North Seattle either (by Teslas or even Leafs).
@Tacket - I agree that HA L2s make a lot of sense. A 100A (aka 80A) Clipper Creek would put 50-60 MPH on my car and that would make an hour charge worth the hassle. The Plug-In North Central Washington guys have got it right.
I can't help but think the people that were pushing for all these low amp chargers don't drive EVs. Can't imagine how they thought the network made sense.
@ZBB - I've heard from a number of people that have blink EVSEs and they are pretty unhappy with the experience. There is a pair near where I live that were installed last Spring and still haven't been powered up. As I said in my comments above, though, I think placement is the bigger issue. The Federal EVI program resulted in a blind rush to place chargers with little thought towards how they would be used. This report by Tom Saxon shows that there is extremely low utilization system wide (around 3%) with Blink having a bit lower average than chargepoint. It's my sense that chargepoint EVSEs generally have better placement.
Also, that report shows something pretty important - utilization of free chargers vs paid in the chargepoint network. It looks like free charging usage is double that of paid during the weekdays and triple that on weekends. While it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that free gets more use than paid, the implication is that system utilization is mostly driven by free usage (>60%). The report didn't break out Blink free vs paid but I expect similar usage patterns there. Free usage is going to go away and thus we should see a significant utilization rate drop. When that happens, I think the Blink network is headed for oblivion as there is simply no revenue potential and placement .
By the way, that Saxon report is a very good read for anyone wanting to understand charging networks.
I can't help but think the people that were pushing for all these low amp chargers don't drive EVs. Can't imagine how they thought the network made sense.
@ZBB - I've heard from a number of people that have blink EVSEs and they are pretty unhappy with the experience. There is a pair near where I live that were installed last Spring and still haven't been powered up. As I said in my comments above, though, I think placement is the bigger issue. The Federal EVI program resulted in a blind rush to place chargers with little thought towards how they would be used. This report by Tom Saxon shows that there is extremely low utilization system wide (around 3%) with Blink having a bit lower average than chargepoint. It's my sense that chargepoint EVSEs generally have better placement.
Also, that report shows something pretty important - utilization of free chargers vs paid in the chargepoint network. It looks like free charging usage is double that of paid during the weekdays and triple that on weekends. While it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that free gets more use than paid, the implication is that system utilization is mostly driven by free usage (>60%). The report didn't break out Blink free vs paid but I expect similar usage patterns there. Free usage is going to go away and thus we should see a significant utilization rate drop. When that happens, I think the Blink network is headed for oblivion as there is simply no revenue potential and placement .
By the way, that Saxon report is a very good read for anyone wanting to understand charging networks.
When the networks were being built out, there were only a handful of plug-ins hitting the market soon and all the ones that were being sold in volume only charged at 12-16A. Only the Roadster could charge faster. A few very limited selling EVs (Fit EV, Focus EV) were able to charge at up to 30A, but until the Model S hit the market last year, there was no significantly volume of vehicles that could charge at anything faster than 30A.
It would be very interesting to see how many Model S owners paid for twin-chargers, but I suspect the ratio is 50-50 at most.
I'm not aware of any commercial J1772 stations with billing capabilities that will do more than 30A on a single plug. Only Leviton sells a 40A EVSE (geared towards RAV4-EV owners) and ClipperCreek is the only one that sells any EVSEs that really do more than 40A in any volume.
Everyone can see the value in faster charging, but it simply did not make sense to build anything that could handle more power - charging equipment is expensive enough as it is.
I am ...
https://suncountryhighway.ca/ev-trip-planner/#.UmBp-_mTx8E
There are tons of 90 amp and 100 amp J1772 chargers out there.
12A is fine for workplace charging or other extended stays - but aren't you complaining that 30A is too slow? Why are you bringing 12A into it?
There are no 90-100A charging stations out there. They are all only capable of 80A maximum (J1772 spec) and ClipperCreek is limiting the CS-100 to 75A to avoid compatibility issues with the Roadster.
I guess I should have clarified that by "commercial" I meant stations with billing services attached, not free stations. Free stations are not sustainable unless you are Tesla using money from vehicle sales and a ton of cash coming in from said sales.
The rest of the stations out there are going to need some sort of way to offset the cost installing and maintaining charging stations. As the number of plug-ins grow, it is simply not possible for free stations to remain usable as demand for said stations outstrips the ability of site-owners to fund their installation. Imagine you need a bank of say 10 charging stations to provide for charging in a busy area. Yeah, it'd be nice if all 10 of them were 75A capable, but that would mean you'd need a huge amount of power installed to service them. It's simply not feasible with a large investment in infrastructure that people are simply not willing to invest.
Maybe public charging is DOA - in which case so are EVs in general. Even Tesla owners need L2 public charging and 30A charging is still very useful for overnight or daytime charging.
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
ClipperCreek does offer billing options on the CS-100 and they will program it to 70A or 80A per your request. I guess they will do 75A also.
Good to know - are you aware of anyone that has used it and what it costs? ChargePoint charges an arm and a leg for their stations. The extra cost will pay for a lot of free electricity.
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Its less than ChargePoint, but still a monthly fee. That's why for the 70A J1772 stations that we are getting running in SW Colorado, we are just using an honor system Paypal account. There will be a QR code at the charger and a few business cards with the QR code and the link for folks to make a Paypal payment.
Blink's problem wasn't the business model. You can always change your business model (more on that later).
The problem with Blink is that Chargepoint's hardware and software are better. And on the most common install for big buyers (dual charger, single pedestal), Blink cost isn't low enough to tempt people away from Chargepoint. So in a head-to-head bakeoff for a corporate deal, Blink loses to Chargepoint. Which would explain why I see Chargepoint at a number of big companies in Silicon Valley. Chargepoint installed more stations at Google alone than Blink has in the entire Bay Area.
Blink's hardware isn't as serviceable as Chargepoint so when Blink stations go down, they stay down for longer. And their software is lagging behind Chargepoint in critical areas - especially different ways to bill (bill by the connect time, bill by KwH, bill by charge time, free, bill by session, etc.).
A word about business model: there seems to be good money to be made in selling/servicing chargers to companies that want to be LEED certified. These are stations that meant to be used only by company employees. There can be tax breaks for that or it's just part of the corporate culture to be eco-friendly. And I suspect the majority of those companies will make the charging free for at least a few years. So that's probably one big factor driving the high amount of free charging.
Edit - Chargepoint's stations are a FRU (field replaceable unit). If the station breaks, the entire working guts of the unit can be replaced in seconds. If a station dies, a driver swings by, opens up the case, swaps the guts, buttons it back up and the station's back in business. The entire repair takes less time than it's taking me to type the add to this message. The dead unit gets fixed back at the service center. Blink can't do this. So their stations stay down longer. That's a big deal for buyers that really care that their stations are up and working.
The problem with Blink is that Chargepoint's hardware and software are better. And on the most common install for big buyers (dual charger, single pedestal), Blink cost isn't low enough to tempt people away from Chargepoint. So in a head-to-head bakeoff for a corporate deal, Blink loses to Chargepoint. Which would explain why I see Chargepoint at a number of big companies in Silicon Valley. Chargepoint installed more stations at Google alone than Blink has in the entire Bay Area.
Blink's hardware isn't as serviceable as Chargepoint so when Blink stations go down, they stay down for longer. And their software is lagging behind Chargepoint in critical areas - especially different ways to bill (bill by the connect time, bill by KwH, bill by charge time, free, bill by session, etc.).
A word about business model: there seems to be good money to be made in selling/servicing chargers to companies that want to be LEED certified. These are stations that meant to be used only by company employees. There can be tax breaks for that or it's just part of the corporate culture to be eco-friendly. And I suspect the majority of those companies will make the charging free for at least a few years. So that's probably one big factor driving the high amount of free charging.
Edit - Chargepoint's stations are a FRU (field replaceable unit). If the station breaks, the entire working guts of the unit can be replaced in seconds. If a station dies, a driver swings by, opens up the case, swaps the guts, buttons it back up and the station's back in business. The entire repair takes less time than it's taking me to type the add to this message. The dead unit gets fixed back at the service center. Blink can't do this. So their stations stay down longer. That's a big deal for buyers that really care that their stations are up and working.
Last edited:
Similar threads
