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Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP
- Thread starter SMAlset
- Start date
evtifosi
Member
I think you are right - I was thinking it was at the end of 2022 - but looking at PG&E it seems like I should now be at the 4-9pm peak time slot.
That makes me think I might be better switching to EV-2A (edit: or even the E-TOU-D since it has a shorter peak time duration of only 3 hrs that I think my single powerwall can handle better...)
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E-TOU-D has short peak periods and only during the weekdays, but the price for both Peak and Off-Peak are higher than for E-TOU-C. If you are a net consumer then your are likely better off on E-TOU-C than E-TOU-D.
evtifosi
Member
Thanks for the response Redhill...
My CCA has the same rates for E-TOU-C and E-TOU-D - peak and off peak are the same on each plan.
I do see that the peak period is shorter on E-TOU-D - which, IF I can produce some extra solar and export with the PowerWall for the rest of the peak time, then the longer peak might gain me more in payback.
While your the generation rates from your CCA might be the same the PG&E trans+distribution rates are not and the E-TOU-C gives you a credit when you use less than the baseline which should always be the case with solar.
Lol someone on Reddit r/solar was complaining this PG&E solar bill is too confusing. Imagine if he got batteries on NEM2-PS.
evtifosi
Member
E-TOU-C it is then (and the Baseline part wasn't too clear to me, nothing on my CCA website talks about the Baseline part of the rates and if they matched PG&E).
Thanks for the help!
This is someone that is on E-TOU-C and with a CCA which is why the generation portion is being backed out. At least PG&E is now calling it a "baseline credit" instead of "conservation incentive" on the bill now.
The baseline credit/charge is applied to the PG&E transmission and distribution credits/charges which is why CCAs ignore this in the rate plans. The joint comparison docs that I have seen from CCAs have all been with monthly kWh below the baseline. This is going to be confusing, but the baseline credit works both ways which means that as you export it reduces your credits just as when you import it reduces the charges. It confused me at first, but it makes sense.
Here are the tables for two tariffs with PG&E generation numbers (without PCIA or FFS, but those are fixed for all plans and all periods). The last four rows are what matter and there is a significant difference in the winter.
| Component | E-TOU-C | E-TOU-D |
|---|---|---|
| Summer Gen Peak | 0.17582 | 0.20525 |
| Summer Gen Off-Peak | 0.12238 | 0.10029 |
| Winter Gen Peak | 0.12705 | 0.16483 |
| Winter Gen Off-Peak | 0.11203 | 0.12930 |
| Summer Dist Peak | 0.14863 | 0.16687 |
| Summer Dist Off-Peak | 0.13863 | 0.13687 |
| Winter Dist Peak | 0.10030 | 0.11813 |
| Winter Dist Off-Peak | 0.09800 | 0.11460 |
| Transmission | 0.07643 | 0.07643 |
| Baseline Credit | -0.02812 | |
| Summer Total Peak | 0.37276 | 0.44855 |
| Summer Total Off-Peak | 0.30932 | 0.31359 |
| Winter Total Peak | 0.27566 | 0.35939 |
| Winter Total Off-Peak | 0.25834 | 0.32033 |
Note: If you go over the baseline the credit turns into a charge of $0.06242 which is a $0.09054 swing that flips the win to E-TOU-D, but with solar that shouldn't happen unless you have a really undersized array.
Edit: I just realized that the baseline credit/charge is only applied to the difference from the baseline, so if you hit the baseline exactly on target (e.g. 10.5 kWh/day * 30 days = 315 kWh) then there isn't a credit or charge. If you only used 250 kWh then you would get a credit of (315-250)*0.02812 or $1.82 and if you went over by using 450 kWh then it is a charge of (450-315)*0.06242 or $8.42. This doesn't change my conclusion that E-TOU-C is better than E-TOU-D for solar customers.
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I'll be getting a 12kW system with 2 Powerwalls. I am currently on PG&E's EV2-A plan and I believe they'll shift me to a TOU plan correct?
My question hopefully is simple
If I put 5kWh back to the grid on non-peak hours and consume 5kWh from the grid during peak hours, do I still need to pay something for this? In summary, to ensure I don't have to pay anything extra, do I do the comparison by kWh net regardless of peak/non-peak or do I actually need to do calculations from a $ perspective depending upon how much non-peak/peak is put back to grid vs consumed
My question hopefully is simple
If I put 5kWh back to the grid on non-peak hours and consume 5kWh from the grid during peak hours, do I still need to pay something for this? In summary, to ensure I don't have to pay anything extra, do I do the comparison by kWh net regardless of peak/non-peak or do I actually need to do calculations from a $ perspective depending upon how much non-peak/peak is put back to grid vs consumed
EV2-A is a time of use plan that is acceptable to PG&E.
The accounting on charges is complex as this thread discusses above. My two cents would be to re-read it, but the TL;DR For every import, you will incur a Non-Bypassable Charge, aka NBC, how much you pay for your 5kWh in, 5kWh out depends on your usage, and for sufficiently large exports, your end of year balance may cancel out your NBC, and MDC charges. Operative phrase being sufficiently large... Hence the advice to you from users here to get a larger system. The end of year true-up is complicated and when you exported and imported can affect how much you owe. With Powerwalls, you should be able to avoid peak rate power grid usage, which helps your accounting.
All the best,
BG
"If I put 5kWh back to the grid on non-peak hours and consume 5kWh from the grid during peak hours, do I still need to pay something for this?"
yes. Net NEM Export/import charges are based on cost not kWh. You want to export as much as possible during Peak. On an annual basis, I'm a net consumer of electricity, but my NEM charges are zero
In order for your exports to cancel out your NBCs, you would have to have significant Net Surplus exports. On the other hand, if you are a significant net consumer with Cumulative Energy Charges greater than the NBCs, then you don't pay the NBCs at all. There is a large "no-mans-land" in the middle where you have small or no net surplus kWh where you do pay NBCs even when you have negative Cumulative Energy Charges at True-up
That isn't the way that the accounting works and you can never avoid paying for the NBCs on the kWh that you import. As we (private discussion between myself, @miimura and @aesculus ) just figured out today the Cumulative NBCs are also included in the Cumulative Energy Charges/Credits, so at your annual True-Up you pay the higher of the two minus the Cumulative MDCs that you paid throughout the year.
They only way to "avoid" paying NBCs is to have the amount owed (the higher of CECC and CNBC) to be less than or equal to the Cumulative MDCs that were paid monthly. Look for a more comprehensive explainer on this with pictures
soon.Ok, you're right, that's not actually how the accounting works. However, if the CECs are higher than the NBCs, then technically you are still paying the NBCs in the Energy Charges, but almost everything else is offset with your TOU credits except the NBCs. To the casual observer, it looks like they're just paying the Energy Charges and the NBCs don't count. To me it's like Alternative Minimum Tax. It's there in the background for a lot of people, but you don't care until it sticks its head up higher than its surroundings.That isn't the way that the accounting works and you can never avoid paying for the NBCs on the kWh that you import. As we (private discussion between myself, @miimura and @aesculus ) just figured out today the Cumulative NBCs are also included in the Cumulative Energy Charges/Credits, so at your annual True-Up you pay the higher of the two minus the Cumulative MDCs that you paid throughout the year.
They only way to "avoid" paying NBCs is to have the amount owed (the higher of CECC and CNBC) to be less than or equal to the Cumulative MDCs that were paid monthly. Look for a more comprehensive explainer on this with pictures
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
That isn't the way that the accounting works and you can never avoid paying for the NBCs on the kWh that you import. As we (private discussion between myself, @miimura and @aesculus ) just figured out today the Cumulative NBCs are also included in the Cumulative Energy Charges/Credits, so at your annual True-Up you pay the higher of the two minus the Cumulative MDCs that you paid throughout the year.
They only way to "avoid" paying NBCs is to have the amount owed (the higher of CECC and CNBC) to be less than or equal to the Cumulative MDCs that were paid monthly. Look for a more comprehensive explainer on this with pictures
Here is the detailed writeup that @Redhill_qik alluded too.
NEM-PS Annual True-Up Calculation [PG&E example]
I was having difficulty in understanding where all the elements came from in my annual true-up bill and reached out the both @miimura and @Redhill_qik for some insight. From our discussions a document was created that is copied into this post. This document explains the factors that determine...
teslamotorsclub.com
The Electricity companies that most of us are saddled with make it as difficult as possible to understand with the hope they will wear us down and just give up and pay without questions. Here in San Diego we are saddled with San Diego Gas & Electric that has a full time staff spending their time jacking up our rates via the PUC and confusing the hell out of the consumers with home solar panels. During the summer we try and charge during the daylight hours vs. nighttime rates. So far so good.
In my 2nd true-up bill, the new column appeared and my bill is $1,100 higher. No new EVs or changes in household. If anything it should be lower in this true-up as I travelled a lot during summer.
THe major cost is coming from this new column E147 SMP Cost. That explains the $1,108 very well.
Does anyone know what it is ?
THanks in advance,
Tim.
THe major cost is coming from this new column E147 SMP Cost. That explains the $1,108 very well.
Does anyone know what it is ?
THanks in advance,
Tim.
There was another mention of SMP earlier in this thread posts 121-140, but no conclusion. Can you post the whole table with this column? If you search the bill PDF, can you find another occurrence of the same $1,108 amount?
Here's the bill I got:
and then it stops billing me from Mar onwards. The Billed Usage (aka Net Usage) was even lower than the previous 12 months, but it's crazy I'm paying $1108 more.
Appreciate anyone who's gone thru and fight to get back their money back.
