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Unhappy with moderation and personal attacks?

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by MsElectric, Sep 20, 2015.

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  1. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    #1 MsElectric, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Bullying, harassment, arbitrary moderation & why some regular contributors leave

    I know in the recent past several well respected contributors to TMC have left this forum, stopped contributing, or decided to take a break from the forum and I wanted to share some feedback based on an experience I had recently where I was personally attacked and called an animal by another forum member.

    My apparent crime and justification for this personal attack is that I suggested to someone who was considering spending about $105K for a P85+ that they might want to consider paying just a little bit more for a P85D. That suggestion was enough for a forum member to engage in a personal attack and what disappointed me more than the personal attack was how a moderator stepped in and made the situation worse.

    I am perfectly capable of defending myself, respectfully. However in this case when a moderator stepped in, rather than admonish the TMC forum member who personally attacked me and remove the post where I was attacked, the moderator instead surgically edited the post where I was attacked and left the rest of the post by the person who attacked me. Then the moderator censored and removed my responding post in its entirety though I did not personally attack anyone and I was respectful in addressing the person who personally attacked me. So from this incidence what I gather is that personal attacks on TMC are tolerated but what is not tolerated is someone respectfully standing up for themselves when attacked.

    So what is the TMC policy on harassment and personal attacks? Is it tolerated as was the case when I was attacked where such posts are surgically edited, sanitized and basically left alone? If a respectful post in response to a personal attack is going to be censored and removed in its entirety should the same not be done to the actual post where a forum member was attacked?

    Recently a well respected forum member shared the atrocious story of how personal attacks against him on TMC made their way to the real world to a point where he started receiving threatening phone calls and messages and for this reason he is going to take a break from contributing to TMC. If you tolerate and appease people who engage in personal attacks you can expect more of such atrocious behavior in the future.

    What also surprised me is how right after a forum member personally attacked me, another forum member used that opportunity to pile on me with all sorts of bizarre accusations in a personal message to me. The diatribe against me on the personal message I received had to do with the thoughts I shared on the thread below and apparently his take on it was that I was "crapping on Tesla" because I took the time to share a few areas where Tesla policies can be improved to better serve their customers.

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/51074-Thoughts-about-Tesla-Warranty-CPO-Service-and-Other-Policies

    I do want to make a note of the fact that since these issues on the above referenced thread were brought up, we now know that Tesla will share the service records of CPO cars when requested and they have also started selling "used" cars that do not meet their CPO criteria. I am in no way taking credit for this but both these policies better serve Tesla customers and better represent the Tesla brand. Such discussions will help Tesla be a stronger company and this is what Elon himself had to say about feedback and criticism. Some TMC forum members here who feel compelled to attack other forum members should pay attention to what Elon has to say on this topic...



    Unfortunately TMC is sometimes seems more of a Tesla Fanclub than a forum for Tesla enthusiasts to share information. I feel TMC is sometimes is more for Tesla the company than for Tesla enthusiasts, owners, or future customers. Any suggestions for areas where Tesla can improve the product and services they offer are merely tolerated only up to a certain point before anyone sharing such thoughts are attacked. Is this the community that the moderators and the power that be want to build here?

    What is ironic is that though the Tesla Motors Corporation forum has essentially no moderation, I would have been felt more comfortable on there in a similar situation because at least I would have had the option of standing up to a bully who would personally attack me and not have my respectful reply removed by a moderator.

    I will continue to contribute here and contrary to what some may believe, I am a huge proponent of Tesla but I happen to think there are some areas and policies that they should improve on as they go more mainstream to be more competitive. I will continue to share my opinions and views on matters. If I say something factually incorrect, please present your own facts and disagree with me. On a public forum, you don't necessarily have to like and agree with everything you hear. For those who feel an urge to want to personally attack those you disagree with, learn to agree to disagree respectfully when you are on a public forum. And while I am wishing for things, I hope moderation becomes more evenhanded in dealing with those who attack at least as much as towards those who are attacked.
     
  2. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Feel free to report the PMs where the person was attacking you. I don't know the post you are talking about. But to say that TMC moderation had anything to do with criminal behavior outside the forum with someone harassing another member is a little much.
     
  3. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    #3 bonnie, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
    Respectfully, it's not the fanboy culture, MsElectric, it is individual jerks. Potshots have been taken at me continually by a small handful of those who disagree with positive posts I've made, to the point that I've found it so tiresome to deal with one particular poster that I spend less and less time on the forum (which has been noted by a few - amazingly, one of my critics has concluded it was because I couldn't defend Tesla so therefore I was quiet). It's a subtle form of harassment - first I quit moderating when I asked myself why I was spending personal time setting myself up as a target ... and now I'm here less and less. And it's easy to tell the group - they're the first ones to blame other forum members for everything and cry 'fanboy!' when someone disagrees with them, rather than engaging in real conversation.

    So it's not the culture. It's individuals. Can't blame an entire group for a handful of people. I've always felt we'd be better off with real names online. (Which is why I use my name and my profile setting has my photo.) Studies have shown that people tend to behave better when their online presence is not anonymous.

    Regarding the specific post you are talking about - iirc, the moderator only moved your post because it quoted the attack that you felt was unfair. Possibly an explanation to you privately would have made that clear. Sounds like it didn't happen. Also consider that the person who you feel attacked you could have received a sanction, negative rep, or had other actions taken by the moderator handling. That information would not have been shared with you.
     
  4. tomas

    tomas Traded in 9 rep bars for M3, used to be somebody!

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    Having participated for 3+ years, IMO - if anything - this forum's phan-o-meter has trended more critical of tesla over the last year, not less. But in any regard, as participant group grows, probability of nasty people with too much time on their hands grows too. I respect that the mods have a lot to deal with, and they do it well.
     
  5. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    In order to make this accusation more balanced and not one-sided, I shall post our PM exchange below, and let the moderators and forum members decide for themselves if I attacked you. I do not think it was an attack and my comments were not "bizarre accusations", but rather honest observations. But first, I want to respond to this comment:

    Until you just posted a link to that thread, I had not been aware or seen that thread before. I know there's no way to actually prove that, other than the fact that I did not once post in that thread (and I would have had I known it existed). I also have not yet subscribed to that thread (something the admins are able confirm, but I'm not asking them to). No, my "diatribe against you" was based on all the other posts you have made in dozens of other threads everytime whenever these same issues come up.

    So now on with the show.

    Our posts during this "incident" that got moved to snippiness are below:

    ... and instead of continuing in a public forum, here is my full and unedited Private Message to you answering your questions and offering advice:

    Obviously this message did not belong in a public thread, which is why I sent it as a PM. But is this an attack? Are these "bizarre accusations"? I honestly do not think they are, as I was trying to provide you some honest feedback and criticism to you, as Elon described people should do in the video you posted. And given you've been publicly supportive of me and the web apps I've created for the community (thank you), my PM to you was meant to be friendly in nature and not an attack at all but rather a set of honest observations.


    But if the mods and/or forum members think differently and that I did attack you, then I publicly apologize.
     
  6. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    My hypothesis on how to post is:

    1. You make your statement.

    2. Someone responds rebutting it.

    3. You answer one more time (or you realize you goofed and acknowledge the correction--happens to everyone).

    4. That's it. Anything more is unlikely to be productive. Of course, you can make the same point in other threads or later on in one of those really long threads (since folks rarely go back and read the entire thread).

    Note that you can probably find some of my posts that violate these rules, as I slip up as often as the next person, but I do try to keep to them.
     
  7. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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  8. BoerumHill

    BoerumHill Member

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    I have nothing to add to this discussion other than to repeat what I said 12 days ago:

    Adding context to the OP:

    snippiness - Page 157

    snippiness - Page 157
     
  9. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

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    This is a strange thread. When did the forum come to this?
     
  10. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    When too many people started taking it too seriously.
    Tmc is a direct sum of its members that joined on single criteria of wanting the membership, no other criteria was there to meet.
    as such there will always be great and awfull people and no two members would agree on where exactly some other member belongs.

    some can live with others disagreeing or attacking them, others cannot.
    Mselectric, you are nice
    ;)
     
  11. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    I agree with the spirit of what the OP is saying. I am under moderation for life and I think that this is unfair.
     
  12. ArtInCT

    ArtInCT Always Learning

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  13. taurusking

    taurusking Member

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    Agree with you completely Bonnie.

    However on the last line..I think moderator could have done a better job of handling things...He edited the post who accused MsElectric and deleted my post and MsElectric posts.

    I personally think that if I disagree with someone I would rather not post anything instead of pointing fingers and accusing someone by calling names.

    It is wrong to call names on the public forum.
     
  14. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    As the moderator who handled that situation (IIRC), no posts were deleted. They were simply moved to snippiness as the posts were solely in response to a comment that was moved to snippiness. Leaving the discussion around the snippy comment in-thread defeats the purpose of moving the snippy comment.
     
  15. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    I think people underestimate the huge amount of effort that can be involved in unwinding a mess like that. Moderators have real lives, they can't spend their whole day managing this forum. Best to avoid the problem in the first place, by being civil - and avoiding being overly sensitive when people argue against your points. (Comment not pointed at anyone in particular... don't be so sensitive. :tongue: )
     
  16. taurusking

    taurusking Member

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    I understand it is not easy to moderate.

    All I am saying is you edited the post of person who was accusing MsElectric and posted the rest of the post and you deleted mine and MsElectric posts. If you remember I brought this post to your attention.

    I am thinking it would have been better if you deleted entire post of person who was accusing MsElectric too.
     
  17. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    Doug I appreciate you as Moderator but I am sorry to say that I, and also most of all TMC Members I think, are sensitive. So I would like to say to all TMC Moderators "please consider that we are sensitive before of punishing us and most important thing please warn us before of punishing us".
     
  18. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Nothing was deleted. I repeat: Nothing. Was. Deleted.

    The post in question was pretty civil up until the name-calling. The name-calling was removed and the discussion around the name-calling was excised with it.

    You're right, we discussed this already. The decision was made and still stands.
     
  19. bollar

    bollar Disgruntled Member

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    #19 bollar, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    Back a thousand years ago, there was a small network called FidoNet. It had two rules:


    • Don't be excessively annoying.
    • Don't be easily annoyed.

    It wouldn't hurt for most of us (including myself) to keep that in mind more often.
     
  20. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    The point is when I was bullied by someone by being personally attacked and called an animal, you decided to pick that moment to pile on me by sending me a bizarre diatribe of insinuations and accusations. There can be no moral justification for someone being bullied or personally attacked. It is wrong.

    ---- Your PM to me ---

    PMCapture.JPG
    ---- Your PM to me ---

    Who are you to question my motives and to accuse me of being "short on Tesla?" Are you seriously making the accusation that my grand scheme here is to point out in detail a few policies where Tesla can be more reasonable to their customers or provide better service and that somehow will bring me a financial windfall? :rolleyes: Go read my posts going back months and you'll see that I have been respectful in my discourse with other forum members and I have pointed out what I feel is fair and what is not fair. There are times that I have been on Tesla's side (like when the discussion about Autopilot delays came up) and there have been times where I have been on the side of a Tesla owner (such as with the situation that came up with Cyclone's CPO car).

    Your accusation that I am "short on Tesla" and that I "crap on everything" is indeed a bizarre accusation. It's all the more distressing when considering the fact that you are essentially stating that this is the reason and justification that I was personally attacked as if to excuse the personal attack. Such an attitude is precisely what I am talking about that is wrong with the present culture of this forum. This is precisely why several forum members who have been immensely valuable to the community here have left. On a public forum, forum members should be able to share their thoughts, both positive and negative, without being bullied, personally attacked, or unfair accusations lobbed against them.

    If you keep this up where those who might have a different opinion are attacked, TMC will become a nice eco chamber and I doubt that's what anyone wants.
     
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