Unions

[NoMoGas]

1. Coincidental occurrence does not imply causality. Some of my coworkers arrive at work somewhat regularly about the same time that I do; that does not mean that there's causality (though it doesn't imply there isn't, either).
2. Being paid the same, or perhaps bracketed by seniority rather than productivity, is the inevitable result of "protect all workers from being fired even if they're child molesters" which is what some teacher unions do for example. And I think you misunderstood my note about union bosses; I wasn't saying they were necessarily worse than CEOs (in the way you're considering income inequality by definition bad) but rather that they are no better.
3. You think billionaires have more sway than industry-wide unions? If that's part of your mindset, I don't think we'll agree on much.

You can't just say stuff and act like it's true. Nor can you take one event and expand it across all instances. And yes, billionaires like the Koch brothers create an echo chamber (They shut down the government for Pete sake)

Here are just some of the Koch Brothers echo chambers:

• Koch Family Foundations
• American Commitment (CPI)
• American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)
• Americans for Prosperity (formerly Citizens For A Sound Economy)
• American Highway Users Alliance
• American Energy Alliance
• American Future Fund
• American Tradition Institute
• Americans for Job Security
• Americans for Tax Reform
• Association for American Innovation (sourcewatch)
• Bill of Rights Insitute
• Cato Institute
• Cause of Action
• Center to Protect Patient Rights
• CitizenLink
• Citizens For A Sound Economy Foundation
• Competitive Enterprise Institute
• Concerned Women for America
• Democratic Leadership Council
• Federalist Society
• Freedom Partners (story)
• Foundation for Research on Economics and the Environment
• Fraser Institute (Canada)
• Freedom Partners (wikipedia)
• Freedom Works (formerly Citizens For A Sound Economy) (Funded Tea Party)
• Galen Institute
• Generation Opportunity
• Goldwater Institute (sourcewatch)
• Heartland Institute
• Institute for Human Studies
• Institute for Policy Innovation
• Knowledge and Progress Fund (Charles Koch)
• Manhattan Institute
• Mercatus Center
• National Petrochemical and Refiners Association (Koch Industries is a member)
• National Taxpayers Union
• Natural Gas Supply Association (Koch Industries is a member)
• Public Notice (POFN LLC) (article)
• Reason Foundation (and Reason.com)
• State Policy Network
• Texas Prosperity Project
• Washington Legal Foundation

This is TWO GUYS!!! Yea, unions are the problem. Give me a break.

If Tesla get's unionized, then it does but no need for anyone to pretend it's baked in the cake, or a horrible thing to fear.

 

[brianman]

And YES, Billionaires like the Koch brothers create an echo chamber (THEY SHUT DOWN THE US GOVERNMENT FOR PETE SAKE.

Yeah, I think we're done with any attempt at a productive discussion here. Also the thread has veered off into politics, rather than the concept and current implementation of unions.

Tip: When you* resort to caps and/or start introducing random typos (more than you* normally do) it's often a sign that it would be a good idea to take a breath and form your argument more carefully and productively.

* This is the general "you" not the specific "you".

 

[bonnie]

I think we were done with a productive discussion a little earlier in the thread than the post you identified.

 

[brianman]

I think we were done with a productive discussion a little earlier in the thread than the post you identified.

Yup. But that sealed it for me.

 

[ggr]

Yeah, I think we're done with any attempt at a productive discussion here. Also the thread has veered off into politics, rather than the concept and current implementation of unions.

Tip: When you* resort to caps and/or start introducing random typos (more than you* normally do) it's often a sign that it would be a good idea to take a breath and form your argument more carefully and productively.

* This is the general "you" not the specific "you".

* In English, one would say "one", when one meant the general "you" not the specific "you".

Now I've taken it to the grammer thread.

 

[Canuck]

Bob, I have sat across from several union officials and employees of my clients and heard them tell me that they hope my client's company goes out of business. Unfortunately, not all union members (or union officials) act rationally.

Having attended countless mediations (not in the filed of labour negotiations) I put these comments down to posturing. Posturing is common and considered a good tactic to use. The arguments made may make no sense rationally but these type of 'strong arm' posturing tactics usually work.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we were done with a productive discussion a little earlier in the thread than the post you identified.

I thought it was just getting good!

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../ I thought it was just getting good!

+1000 :wink:

 

[neroden]

Ive always thought that unions and capitalism do not go together.

And I've always thought that corporations and capitalism do not go together. Corporations are intensely bureaucratic command-and-control central-planning operations, much like the USSR.

It seems like pure capitalism is an impossibility, or a disaster. Markets and competition work for some things, and not for others.

It is blatantly obvious that, today, certain billionaire corporate CEOs have far more power than any union in the United States. Probably than any union in the world. When union bosses start getting themselves positions as mayors and governors by spending union money, then you can compare them to corporate CEOs who do the same thing with money which they've looted from their companies by writing themselves "bonuses".

The arbitrary power wielded by certain corporate bosses in arbitrary ways is a problem. Unions are a reaction to that problem. Probably not the best reaction, but other reactions (socialist workers' cooperatives!) seem to be less popular for some reason. :wink: Germany's required worker's councils for corporations may be a good thing.

From what I can tell, unions in the US have actually been actively messed up since the 1950s or maybe the late 1940s by a bunch of government regulations which *seem* like they help unions but which actually require them to do things like protecting freeloaders, while hindering the ability of workers to vote in new union reps. I've only begun to research the history.

 

[Canuck]

+1000 :wink:

Do you follow hockey? We've got two of your fellow countrymen on our hockey team here: the Sedin twins (great players and genuinely good people). They will be playing for your country next month in Sochi but you won't find me rooting for them at that time. Go CANADA!

 

[NoMoGas]

I thought it was just getting good!

Nothing wrong with a hearty debate and I dont expect Brian or Bonnie to necessarily agree with me, but I felt it necessary to at least attempt to point out the other side of the equation, or one of the many sides. This thread did start to take an uncomfortable turn however and for that I do apologize.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Do you follow hockey? We've got two of your fellow countrymen on our hockey team here: the Sedin twins (great players and genuinely good people). They will be playing for your country next month in Sochi but you won't find me rooting for them at that time. Go CANADA!

Look what I ‘found’:

The Hockey Thread! | TMC

I’ve written a reply there :smile:

 

[brianman]

* In English, one would say "one", when one meant the general "you" not the specific "you".
Now I've taken it to the grammer thread.

Both are valid. I was tempted to use the uppity flavor but held back. Also, it's "grammar".

 

[ggr]

Both are valid. I was tempted to use the uppity flavor but held back. Also, it's "grammar".

I intentionally misspelled it. I thought it was also intentionally misspelled in Grammar Misteaks, Spelling Misteaks, and Bad Puns but when I went to check, I see that it isn't! Opportunity missed.

 

[Arnold Panz]

I'm confused. The law obligates a union to protect a member doing illegal things?

Unless someone has actually been convicted of a crime, yes. Just an accusation of theft, for example, that leads to an employee's termination is an extremely common basis for a grievance. Same with drug use, or selling drugs. I have had numerous cases involving videotape evidence showing someone commencing a drug deal or stealing something from a warehouse and we had to defend the discharge all the way through arbitration because the employee refused to let it go and the union had to keep representing the employee.

FWIW, I don't disagree with Bob's general defense of unions (and the neutering of the NLRB), and it doesn't necessarily have to be the worst thing in the world for a current employer to become unionized. Plenty of currently very successful companies have unionized work forces. But it's a complication that, all things being equal, is generally best avoided if at all possible, so I will continue to hope that Tesla is able to do so.

 

[NoMoGas]

FWIW, I don't disagree with Bob's general defense of unions (and the neutering of the NLRB), and it doesn't necessarily have to be the worst thing in the world for a current employer to become unionized. Plenty of currently very successful companies have unionized work forces. But it's a complication that, all things being equal, is generally best avoided if at all possible, so I will continue to hope that Tesla is able to do so.

That is a very fair point. Obviously the lees cooks in the kitchen the more streamlined a company. Unionization would give the workers (as a group) a say in how the company is run and that may run counter to what management or even the stockholders would like. As has been said many times, let's see what the employees have to say about it. This is their "fight" (for the lack of a better term) and I can support whichever way they decide. As much as I am a union supporter, I support democracy first.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

A defeat for unions at VW, Tennessee:

BBC News - Volkswagens US workers vote against joining union

 

[Krugerrand]

Oops.