[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[Danal]

The battery will output about 75 kW of energy.

I've seen a lot of people say this "75kWh in the real world" (not just lphe).


Genuine curiosity question: Why are we not equally upset with Tesla for a known 85 to 75 mis-label mis-advertise? This appears to be widely known fact (whereas the HP facts have been debated for page after page, and we still don't know much)... so why no upset over capacity "false advertising"?

 

[thegruf]

... Since EV's peak horsepower seems to only work in a burst mode/temporary spike at low RPMs, why is Tesla able to advertise 691HP in the way a standard auto manufacturer rates an ICE vehicle? If a Corvette only outputted it's maximum advertised HP from 0-30MPH, and after that the same as a Camaro V6 with half the advertised power, the shat would hit the fan! There is a huge issue with how the P85D's 691 advertised HP is being marketed. I DONT CARE if it puts out slightly less peak HP then advertised, no big deal as the 0-60 times and a 5,000lb car speaks volumes - but this CAR DOES NOT OUTPUT 691HP AT ALL TIMES, ONLY WHILE UNDER 30MPH AND ONLY WHEN FULLY CHARGED. Hence, the reason I recommend Tesla puts an asterisk next to the advertised power because that power is ONLY ON TAP FOR SHORT LOW SPEED BURSTS.

Sorry, but wrong on many levels.

An initial valid query regarding performance vs SOC seems to have degenerated somewhat to some very interesting comments, and some that are way off the mark

Model S peak horsepower does not operate in "burst" mode, it has a torque curve like any other drive method.
Model S is a single ratio geared vehicle - this is clear to all owners with minimal investigation - so clearly the torque curve works in a fixed manner across the entire speed range.
No ICE puts out its HP at all times, (although fuel level is not usually a criteria) - in fact many performance ICE vehicles are deliberately power limited in low gears to protect the drivetrain and can be significantly affected by ambient temperature.

what would happen if Tesla put in a 2 or even 3 speed box ... well that really could frighten the ICE world ... but Tesla makes road cars (not track cars or drag cars) so performance outside public road use is purely incidental albeit occasionally amusing!

This thread is is desperate need of some owners comparing acceleration at various SOCs

 

[Jaff]

The "ICE" world is already frightened...:wink:

 

[krisg81]

Ok, if I'm wrong, tell me this- are those 691 advertised horsepower NOT available after 40MPH? It sure doesnt feel like you are driving an almost 700HP car anywhere except off the line from a dead stop. In fact, coming from my P85, why can I barely feel a difference in power from their 417HP car to their 691HP car? I'm sorry but that seems wrong if you can only feel a difference off the line and that power is not usable anywhere else, like passing vehicles- passing cars is the same in the P85.

Yes ive seen the P85 v P85D rolling video but keep in mind WE DONT KNOW THEIR SOC LEVELS. The p85D might have been 100% charged and the P85 at a 20% charge which would have made a huge difference when going from a roll. I just don't feel it, and no one else who has ridden in the car notices a difference. In fact, a couple of friends have already said my old P85 felt snappier above 40-50MPH.

Point is if you are a car manufacturer and advertise cars with hundreds of horsepower more than your other models, I just don't think it's fair to make those claims when that power is not readily available anywhere except lower speeds and at optimal battery charge conditions.

tesla needs to be more transparent about rated power levels, period!

Sorry, but wrong on many levels.

An initial valid query regarding performance vs SOC seems to have degenerated somewhat to some very interesting comments, and some that are way off the mark

Model S peak horsepower does not operate in "burst" mode, it has a torque curve like any other drive method.
Model S is a single ratio geared vehicle - this is clear to all owners with minimal investigation - so clearly the torque curve works in a fixed manner across the entire speed range.
No ICE puts out its HP at all times, (although fuel level is not usually a criteria) - in fact many performance ICE vehicles are deliberately power limited in low gears to protect the drivetrain and can be significantly affected by ambient temperature.

what would happen if Tesla put in a 2 or even 3 speed box ... well that really could frighten the ICE world ... but Tesla makes road cars (not track cars or drag cars) so performance outside public road use is purely incidental albeit occasionally amusing!

This thread is is desperate need of some owners comparing acceleration at various SOCs

 

[Danal]

OK, data capture. Here is a Google Sheet that anyone can edit:

Google Sheet for capture of P85D "Launch" data

Please give immediate comment to what the COLUMNS should or shouldn't be, I've taken a "starting guess" to get the ball rolling.


And, feel free to add rows right now. At least a few of the folks who've been campaigning for data, your signatures indicate you own P85Ds. Please feel free to put some rows in the sheet ASAP to help us all decide what should/shouldn't be there.

Thanks!

Danal

 

[krisg81]

OK, data capture. Here is a Google Sheet that anyone can edit:

Google Sheet for capture of P85D "Launch" data

Please give immediate comment to what the COLUMNS should or shouldn't be, I've taken a "starting guess" to get the ball rolling.


And, feel free to add rows right now. At least a few of the folks who've been campaigning for data, your signatures indicate you own P85Ds. Please feel free to put some rows in the sheet ASAP to help us all decide what should/shouldn't be there.

Thanks!

Danal

I really think we need to capture 30-60MPH runs as well. Thats where I really feel a difference in power based on SOC levels.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

In an ICE car, advertised HP is available AT ALL SPEEDS, but dependent on RPM - but you have all HP on tap at any speed (dependent on correct gear)

I don't think you understand how transmissions and gear ratios work.

With a 6 speed transmission, peak HP in an ICE is available at precisely and only at 6 specific speeds. 8 speed transmission? Peak HP at 8 speeds. Why? Because an ICE makes peak HP only at a specific RPM and each gear is a fixed ratio.

 

[thegruf]

I don't think you understand how transmissions and gear ratios work.

With a 6 speed transmission, peak HP in an ICE is available at precisely and only at 6 specific speeds. 8 speed transmission? Peak HP at 8 speeds. Why? Because an ICE makes peak HP only at a specific RPM and each gear is a fixed ratio.

true ... but even this must be modified for torque limiting in low gears as is practiced by some manufacturers

- - - Updated - - -

... tesla needs to be more transparent about rated power levels, period!

No it doesn't.

Additional information would be helpful regarding power vs SOC and recovery from heatsoak, but not necessary.
This fourm probably has <1% of owners on it, and as is the way of forums, typically the most enquiring sorts.

You can safely bet the vast majority of owners are all happily enjoying their cars oblivious to this place.

If you feel you have not got the car you expected, you should have done more research first.
... which is precisely what I am doing, in part here, prior to purchase.

And purchase I will.

 

[LetsGoFast]

I don't have time to write up my full results right now, but I'll give a quick summary for you to have something to chew on.

First run at 12:41pm, 39F, SOC 89%:
Quarter mile in 11.9698 @110.21. 1/8 in 7.558 @91.95, 1.7146 60', 4.8546 330'

Third run at 2:08pm, 43F, SOC 45%:
Quarter mile in 12.2334 @106.91. 1/8 in 7.7043 @89.66, 1.7221 60', 4.9345 330'

Fifth run at 2:36pm, 46F, SOC 40%:
Quarter mile in 12.4414 @109.14. 1/8 in 7.9163 @86.26, 1.8352 60', 5.1216 330'

All three runs were in strong, gusty wind conditions that were mostly cross winds, but might have been slightly into me with average winds of 15mph, gusts up to 25mph. The first and third run were in very similar situations: the car was driven on the interstate for some time and then allowed to cool down after. Before the first run, it cooled for about an hour and before the third run for 30 minutes or so. The fifth run was the third consecutive run in half an hour, so there may have been issues relating to that (I've got no good explanation for the higher trap speed on the fifth run, except that I think I was staged deeper). All three runs of these runs were performed in Insane Mode, Range Mode Off.

I did two more runs with Range Mode on, just for the heck of it:

Second run at 12:46pm, 40F, SOC 87%:
Quarter mile in 12.0734 @112.95. 1/8 in 7.702 @89.70, 1.8426 60', 5.0030 330'

Fourth run at 2:29pm, 45F, SOC 42%:
Quarter mile in 12.3906 @108.91. 1/8 in 7.8617 @86.56, 1.8107 60', 5.0713 330'

I've got a few videos and pictures I can upload later, but I think this is most of the raw data. I would obviously have preferred to also get in a run at significantly lower SOC, but it was difficult to scrub off enough charge -- I was driving at 75mph with the heaters going full blast and the windows down and it still took me almost an hour to get from 85% to 45% and I had a party to attend and couldn't stay any longer.

In raw numbers, comparing Runs 1 and 3, which were the closest to identical conditions, the quarter mile ET declined by 2.21% and the trap speed declined by 2.99%. The 1/8 mile ET declined 1.94% and the trap speed by 2.49%. I think we can safely say that performance at 45% SOC is not significantly worse than performance at 89% since I seriously doubt anyone can detect a 2-3% decrease accurately.

I'm not 100% sure about the performance with Range Mode ON. It is possible that it shows a slight decrease or it is possible that the performance difference is more likely due to the effect of running back to back. I hoped that my fifth run would be faster than my fourth, which would prove that range more was a handicap, but the fact that it continued to get just as much slower probably does more to support the argument that multiple consecutive runs are a bigger factor.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, I used Dynolicious on my phone and concluded that it is entirely unreliable. On my first run, it claims I did the quarter in 10.16 with a 140mph trap. It also thinks I did 0-60 in 2.75 seconds, which is ummmm, unrealistic.

 

[krisg81]

If you feel you have not got the car you expected, you should have done more research first.
... which is precisely what I am doing, in part here, prior to purchase.

And purchase I will.

No one said that I didn't get the car that I expected, this is a topic solely focused on power levels. I have had two Tesla's, you have none. Thanks for your opinion, let us know when you get your car and then come back and I would love to hear your opinion after you sign the papers.

 

[benjiejr]

@LetsGoFast, just wanted to say thank you for spending so much time on these tests. I would have thought you would have seen drastically slower times at lower SOC, but your data doesn't support that.

 

[krisg81]

I don't have time to write up my full results right now, but I'll give a quick summary for you to have something to chew on.

First run at 12:41pm, 39F, SOC 89%:
Quarter mile in 11.9698 @110.21. 1/8 in 7.558 @91.95, 1.7146 60', 4.8546 330'

Third run at 2:08pm, 43F, SOC 45%:
Quarter mile in 12.2334 @106.91. 1/8 in 7.7043 @89.66, 1.7221 60', 4.9345 330'

Fifth run at 2:36pm, 46F, SOC 40%:
Quarter mile in 12.4414 @109.14. 1/8 in 7.9163 @86.26, 1.8352 60', 5.1216 330'

All three runs were in strong, gusty wind conditions that were mostly cross winds, but might have been slightly into me with average winds of 15mph, gusts up to 25mph. The first and third run were in very similar situations: the car was driven on the interstate for some time and then allowed to cool down after. Before the first run, it cooled for about an hour and before the third run for 30 minutes or so. The fifth run was the third consecutive run in half an hour, so there may have been issues relating to that (I've got no good explanation for the higher trap speed on the fifth run, except that I think I was staged deeper). All three runs of these runs were performed in Insane Mode, Range Mode Off.

I did two more runs with Range Mode on, just for the heck of it:

Second run at 12:46pm, 40F, SOC 87%:
Quarter mile in 12.0734 @112.95. 1/8 in 7.702 @89.70, 1.8426 60', 5.0030 330'

Fourth run at 2:29pm, 45F, SOC 42%:
Quarter mile in 12.3906 @108.91. 1/8 in 7.8617 @86.56, 1.8107 60', 5.0713 330'

I've got a few videos and pictures I can upload later, but I think this is most of the raw data. I would obviously have preferred to also get in a run at significantly lower SOC, but it was difficult to scrub off enough charge -- I was driving at 75mph with the heaters going full blast and the windows down and it still took me almost an hour to get from 85% to 45% and I had a party to attend and couldn't stay any longer.

In raw numbers, comparing Runs 1 and 3, which were the closest to identical conditions, the quarter mile ET declined by 2.21% and the trap speed declined by 2.99%. The 1/8 mile ET declined 1.94% and the trap speed by 2.49%. I think we can safely say that performance at 42% SOC is not significantly worse than performance at 89% since I seriously doubt anyone can detect a 2-3% decrease accurately.

I'm not 100% sure about the performance with Range Mode ON. It is possible that it shows a slight decrease or it is possible that the performance difference is more likely due to the effect of running back to back. I hoped that my fifth run would be faster than my fourth, which would prove that range more was a handicap, but the fact that it continued to get just as much slower probably does more to support the argument that multiple consecutive runs are a bigger factor.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, I used Dynolicious on my phone and concluded that it is entirely unreliable. On my first run, it claims I did the quarter in 10.16 with a 140mph trap. It also thinks I did 0-60 in 2.75 seconds, which is ummmm, unrealistic.

To gear heads and performance enthusiasts, your data is proving exactly what I have been saying. You have a .5 second variance in the 1/4 and your trap speeds indication a decent amount of horsepower loss. .5 seconds in the 1/4 mile is a big difference in performance- not to the regular crowd, but performance enthusiasts most definitely. The crazy thing is the big drop from 45% SOC to 40% SOC. As I mentioned earlier several times, below 50% SOC is where you *notice* the difference, but it rapidly falls off a cliff from there, making Insane mode feel like Sport mode.

Under 40% is where it just spirals downhill. Lets see data below 40% and go from there. I will be taking my P85D to the drag strip this coming Saturday and I am hoping to have timeslips showing my data as well.

The point of this whole thread is the P85D is much more sensitive to SOC levels than the P85, and its disappointing that performance diminishes so much below half the battery charge. I can understand 20%, but 50% and 40% sucks. At 25% and below its slower than a P85 at the same charge levels, at least what it feels like to me. This is why I believe Tesla needs to address being transparent with their HP rating. With 40% battery and below, the car is clearly losing 75-100HP+ which I don't think is fair to not mention this to consumers.

 

[LetsGoFast]

To gear heads and performance enthusiasts, your data is proving exactly what I have been saying. You have a .5 second variance in the 1/4 and your trap speeds indication a decent amount of horsepower loss. .5 seconds in the 1/4 mile is a big difference in performance- not to the regular crowd, but performance enthusiasts most definitely. The crazy thing is the big drop from 45% SOC to 40% SOC.

I disagree completely with your conclusion. It dropped .26 seconds from 89% to 45%. I am almost entirely certain that the difference between the 45% and the 40% run is attributable to running three consecutive all out launches within 28 minutes. If you look closely at the consecutive launches, they tend to get about 1/10th slower each time you do one. I strongly suspect that if I had time for the car to cool there would have been virtually no difference between the 45% and the 40%.

As I mentioned earlier several times, below 50% SOC is where you *notice* the difference, but it rapidly falls off a cliff from there, making Insane mode feel like Sport mode.

Your contention would appear to be that you can notice a 2% difference, which I'm quite sceptical about.

At 25% and below its slower than a P85 at the same charge levels, at least what it feels like to me.

I'd be happy to make a sidebet on that question.

 

[brianman]

First run at 12:41pm, 39F, SOC 89%:
Quarter mile in 11.9698 @110.21. 1/8 in 7.558 @91.95, 1.7146 60', 4.8546 330'

Third run at 2:08pm, 43F, SOC 45%:
Quarter mile in 12.2334 @106.91. 1/8 in 7.7043 @89.66, 1.7221 60', 4.9345 330'

Fifth run at 2:36pm, 46F, SOC 40%:
Quarter mile in 12.4414 @109.14. 1/8 in 7.9163 @86.26, 1.8352 60', 5.1216 330'

...

I did two more runs with Range Mode on, just for the heck of it:

Second run at 12:46pm, 40F, SOC 87%:
Quarter mile in 12.0734 @112.95. 1/8 in 7.702 @89.70, 1.8426 60', 5.0030 330'

Fourth run at 2:29pm, 45F, SOC 42%:
Quarter mile in 12.3906 @108.91. 1/8 in 7.8617 @86.56, 1.8107 60', 5.0713 330'

At 25% and below its slower than a P85 at the same charge levels

Fred brought a new P85 to the Silent Thunder event last September. He walked away with a trophy for "Quickest Tesla Model S" that day.

Here’s the results of my first four runs:

Time	Reaction Time	1/8th Mile	speed	1/4 mile	Speed
1:22PM	.964	8.228	90.57	12.627	105.05
1:26PM	.178	8.008	90.40	12.389	110.65
1:37PM	.571	7.982	90.11	12.388	109.86
1:49PM	.345	8.317	87.33	12.899	106.96

...
Here’s the results of my last six runs:

Time	Reaction Time	1/8th Mile	Speed	1/4 Mile	Speed
2:43PM	.116	8.148	89.85	12.559	109.96
2:47PM	.113	8.148	89.88	12.556	109.65
2:51PM	.751	8.171	89.63	12.595	109.06
2:54PM	.930	8.236	88.12	12.710	108.27
2:57PM	.077	8.800	80.27	13.692	100.33
3:01PM	.109	9.138	76.56	14.291	95.33

(Fred) The P85s best numbers on that day were ~12.39s and 110.65mph for the 1/4 mile.
(LGF) The P85Ds worst numbers above were ~12.44s and 106.91mph for the 1/4 mile.


Environmental conditions, driver variance, yadda, yadda. Just offering data.

 

[wk057]

I plan on running my P85D and my fiance's P85 at an 1/8th mile drag nearby soon, with upper 90s% SoC on each thanks to a friend with a NEMA 14-50 a few miles away.

 

[okashira]

I analyzed the p85d's performance and power here:
Endless-sphere.com View topic - Tesla P85D Insane Mode

My conclusion is ~470-500 peak mechanical HP at full charge, less at lower charge. ~16A per cell peak (~1200A pack).

 

[thegruf]

I disagree completely with your conclusion. It dropped .26 seconds from 89% to 45%. I am almost entirely certain that the difference between the 45% and the 40% run is attributable to running three consecutive all out launches within 28 minutes. If you look closely at the consecutive launches, they tend to get about 1/10th slower each time you do one. I strongly suspect that if I had time for the car to cool there would have been virtually no difference between the 45% and the 40%.

+1 and thank you for taking the time to do the runs and provide the data
Essentially as I expected. Hope you had a good day.

run 2 stands out slightly with the highest trap speed and slowest 60ft (range mode?)

 

[krisg81]

(Fred) The P85s best numbers on that day were ~12.39s and 110.65mph for the 1/4 mile.
(LGF) The P85Ds worst numbers above were ~12.44s and 106.91mph for the 1/4 mile.


Environmental conditions, driver variance, yadda, yadda. Just offering data.

Thank you for this- it echo's my point about the video of the P85 v P85D video showing the P85D pulling away from the P85 - SOC matters and that video means nothing. Could have been a fully charged D vs a low SOC P85. Also shows my point that the P85D is advertised with 274 *MORE* HP, yet hardly any difference in the 1/4 unless battery FULLY charged. How many of you are not finding that very strange is beyond me.. almost 300HP difference yet the numbers are WAY too close here.

 

[LetsGoFast]

run 2 stands out slightly with the highest trap speed and slowest 60ft (range mode?)

I'm quite puzzled by that too. In my old drag racing days, we would attribute that sort of thing to driver issues with the shifter and clutch. I'm really not sure how to interpret some of the range mode numbers. Just to clarify, runs 2 and 4 were more or less immediately after runs 1 and 3 and they both were done with range and insane mode set on. The variability between the amount of time I cooled down between those runs is only attributable to the number of cars in line ahead of me.

I probably should have included my reaction times, although I thought that the ETs didn't include it. They were as follows:

Run 1: .1263
Run 2: .0518
Run 3: .1252
Run 4: .1149
Run 5: .0409

I had a great time. Probably the best story is from my first run. There was a group of kids with their various Mustangs and the first one of them (a 5 liter GT) ended up slotted next to me. He was telling his friends he wanted to let someone else in front of him so that he could get a "good race." His buddy said "Dude, that guy is going to kick your ass. That's one of those new Teslas." His friend was right.

Because it was a test and tune day, I ran against some highly modified rides, so I also got schooled a couple of times. One guy had a tubbed out Honda with no interior, N2O and I don't know what the heck kind of drive train, but he beat me to 60' and never looked back.

Here is the Mustang learning the truth:

 

[fiksegts]

we do know without question, both cars in that roll and dead stop race were at 100% SOC......

Yes ive seen the P85 v P85D rolling video but keep in mind WE DONT KNOW THEIR SOC LEVELS. The p85D might have been 100% charged and the P85 at a 20% charge which would have made a huge difference when going from a roll. I just don't feel it, and no one else who has ridden in the car notices a difference. In fact, a couple of friends have already said my old P85 felt snappier above 40-50MPH.