[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[EarlyAdopter]

Another possible explanation could be that the two motors - larger rear old gen and smaller front new gen - have different power curves.

Say for instance the rear motor produced peak power from 0-4000 RPM and the front motor from 6000-10000 (made up numbers for illustrative purposes), then while the rear motor was capable of putting out 470hp and the front 220hp, the fixed gearing of both would prevent them from peaking simultaneously.

Thus, while it would be true that the "combined motor power" was 690hp, and the battery able to deliver enough current, the unique power bands and fixed gearing would prevent us from seeing 690hp/510kW peak power output.

Again, as I've said before I think this is all academic and the only numbers I care about are the following: 3.1s and 1.3G. But for those who do, this is another possible explanation for the descrepency we're seeing that has nothing to do with the battery.

 

[wk057]

Another possible explanation could be that the two motors - larger rear old gen and smaller front new gen - have different power curves.

Say for instance the rear motor produced peak power from 0-4000 RPM and the front motor from 6000-10000 (made up numbers for illustrative purposes), then while the rear motor was capable of putting out 470hp and the front 220hp, the fixed gearing of both would prevent them from peaking simultaneously.

Thus, while it would be true that the "combined motor power" was 690hp, and the battery able to deliver enough current, the unique power bands and fixed gearing would prevent us from seeing 690hp/510kW peak power output.

Again, as I've said before I think this is all academic and the only numbers I care about are the following: 3.1s and 1.3G. But for those who do, this is another possible explanation for the descrepency we're seeing that has nothing to do with the battery.

If this were the case the power usage curve wouldn't flatten. It would have two peaks.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Guardians of the Galaxy - Nothing Goes Over My Head Scene - YouTube

Ah well, regardless of how you want to spin it there is nothing I can do to this car to make it output 691 HP. In the case of the 60 vs 85, I can put an 85 pack in the 60 car and make it put out HP on par with the 85.... no such luck with the P85D.

I challenge you to find one other vehicle manufacturer that advertises a "motor power" that is not achievable as is when the vehicle is purchased. Given that this is complete nonsense, you'll never find one. Given that, Tesla should never expect people to presume differently. They say X HP, the car should put out X HP. Not X-200 HP. Not X-50 HP. X or more HP. If it can't do what they advertise when I buy it, then that's false advertising. Plain and simple. I'm not buying a motor. I don't give a crap what the sticker on the motor says.

I'll give you an example that was pointed out by someone ironically complaining about the P85D's power rating too.
The C-Max Energi's battery at max power in depletion mode can only output 68kW. The motor however is listed at 88kW.
http://insideevs.com/uk-review-tesla-model-s-p85d/
http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/engine/

At least we finally have agreement what motor power clearly means as used by Tesla: the power rating of the motor (and perhaps motor/inverter combo at the most). Again, I would agree it may be misleading (which is why personally I support their decision to go back on this whole "motor power" thing), but I'm not sure if it's false advertising (that's what disclaimers are for). As long as it is factual that their motors make that much power, then the statement is true (even if misleading).

 

[p85dk]

I'll give you an example that was pointed out by someone ironically complaining about the P85D's power rating too.
The C-Max Energi's battery at max power in depletion mode can only output 68kW. The motor however is listed at 88kW.
http://insideevs.com/uk-review-tesla-model-s-p85d/
http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/engine/

At least we finally have agreement what motor power clearly means as used by Tesla: the power rating of the motor (and perhaps motor/inverter combo at the most). Again, I would agree it may be misleading (which is why personally I support their decision to go back on this whole "motor power" thing), but I'm not sure if it's false advertising (that's what disclaimers are for).

If the limit is the battery output, then they should advertise with that number.

As long as it is factual that their motors make that much power, then the statement is true (even if misleading).

The fact is that the motors DO NOT make that much power, they CAN make that much power - there is a big difference, so the statement is not true. If I walk into McDonald's and ask for a 30oz soda and they give me a 30oz cup with 20oz soda in it, but making me pay for 30oz because the cup CAN hold 30oz, then I would feel cheated. But you are telling me that that would be ok in the US?

 

[WarpedOne]

The fact is that the motors DO NOT make that much power, they CAN make that much power

They can and they do - one at a time.
Where and when did tesla say they do it at exact same time?
When that 100kWh battery comes out, they will be able to do it at the same time.

This whole thread is silly.

 

[p85dk]

They can and they do - one at a time.

Are you saying the car is shifting between front to rear wheel bias at any given time? It sure does not feel like it. Furthermore I do not think any one of the two motors at any time is at their max, but please prove me wrong.

Or maybe they use the two motors as compensation for not having gears, if they in fact do what you are saying. But then my other car with a 6 speed and 272 hp should be rated at 6x272=1,632 hp according to the way Tesla displays power.

Where and when did tesla say they do it at exact same time?

Right here in the design studio they said 700 hk, the same way they said the power for the other models

When that 100kWh battery comes out, they will be able to do it at the same time.

This whole thread is silly.

Talking about another battery does not change what they have sold us, then Tesla should have said: If you buy this car there will in the future be a option to upgrade the battery and then get even more power out of the motors, but for now it only has a combined max power of approx. 430 metric hp.

 

[WarpedOne]

Contact your Denmark Tesla representative and demand a car that performs as advertised in that pic or a refund. Or just accept the reality and live with it.
What else is there for a grown up person to do?

I may not use the words "stop whining" any more...

 

[p85dk]

I don't understand what is wrong with wanting to know what I bought since it clearly is something different than was advertised? If you think its whining, stop reading this tread - and I have written to Tesla Denmark and asked the same questions, and as others I receive no answers.

Clearly the output power on all other models is no secret. You have a power rating and then a rating for each motor, reading this, there is no indication that the power of the P85D should not be 700 hk. If it is not 700 hk they should write what it is as with the other models.

And on another note, I thought the motor in front was the same on 70D, 85D and P85D, and the rating on 70D and 85D is 261 HK and only 224 HK on the P85D. So the P85D should have a max rating of 737 hk?

Nowhere does it say it does not have 700 hk and it even says '85 kWh battery with high performance all-wheel drive'

 

[Stoneymonster]

This thread is a flat circle.

 

[hdsm]

Thread can be flat when someone doesnt accept the reality!

I am a Tesla suporter but they made it completely unclear! they have to explain what is the reality ! i just asked them and by the way they read this thread also...

We are mature we can discuss ! dont you think Tesla has to clarify both their idea (700hk) and perhaps the future (upgrading)

 

[vip gts]

Tesla must have known that anyone choosing the p85d over the 85d does it mainly because of performance and the total simultaneous power is important to know. They have got themselves in this mess and no matter the outcome it does tarnish them in the eyes of p85d owners like me. They should have clearly stated that the total simultaneous output is about 550 hp but may change with updates. I love the car but was really expecting even better high speed performance as they previously promised.

 

[p85dk]

Tesla must have known that anyone choosing the p85d over the 85d does it mainly because of performance and the total simultaneous power is important to know.

+1

Where did you get the 550 hp from, when I had mine on the dyno it was approx 430 metric hp and from what I understand the dyno test dragtimes did showed the power in the same range. Instant torque on the other hand is out of this world

 

[stopcrazypp]

+1

Where did you get the 550 hp from, when I had mine on the dyno it was approx 430 metric hp and from what I understand the dyno test dragtimes did showed the power in the same range. Instant torque on the other hand is out of this world

550hp is from the power meter and REST API. AFAIK there is no valid dyno test of the P85D as there is no dyno in existence that can handle the peak torque due to the gearing (unlike an ICE car, you don't have gears to switch on the Tesla to reduce the wheel torque, so it that is measurable without breaking the dyno). I believe multiple people have looked but failed to find a dyno that can measure the P85D at peak torque. 430 is less than what the P85 was measured at (436hp with only rear motor), so that seems unlikely to be actually reflective of what the P85D is outputting with both motors.

 

[p85dk]

550hp is from the power meter and REST API. AFAIK there is no valid dyno test of the P85D as there is no dyno in existence that can handle the peak torque due to the gearing (unlike an ICE car, you don't have gears to switch on the Tesla to reduce the wheel torque, so it that is measurable without breaking the dyno). I believe multiple people have looked but failed to find a dyno that can measure the P85D at peak torque. 430 is less than what the P85 was measured at (436hp with only rear motor), so that seems unlikely to be actually reflective of what the P85D is outputting with both motors.

ok - but the power meter and REST API is only how much energy is transfered into the motors, not what they put out. So it is diffently not 550 hp then.

Correct about the torque, but HP are measured with know factors, the weight of the drums etc. I was told by a dyno specialist. So the one thing they are 100% certain about is the measured hp and they agree that they can not measure the torque. This may also explain why Tesla is so reluctant to tell us the actual power of the P85D, or?

I think that makes sense. The faster acceleration of the P85D is down to more torque and better traction which is more important for fast 0-60 mph times than hp power.

 

[wk057]

As of right now the car does everything Tesla originally said it would do..... except for everything Tesla originally said it would do.

285 mile range! Oh wait... 253....
Autopilot! Oh wait... maybe this summer...
691 HP! Oh wait... maybe 500.....
0-60 in 3.2s! Oh wait... they changed their metric to include a 1-ft rollout (which it didn't before), so it's really ~8-60 in 3.2s and 0-60 in ~3.6s.
Next generation seats! Oh wait... a bunch of owners had to wait months more for those...

 

[p85dk]

As of right now the car does everything Tesla originally said it would do..... except for everything Tesla originally said it would do.

285 mile range! Oh wait... 253....
Autopilot! Oh wait... maybe this summer...
691 HP! Oh wait... maybe 500.....
0-60 in 3.2s! Oh wait... they changed their metric to include a 1-ft rollout (which it didn't before), so it's really ~8-60 in 3.2s and 0-60 in ~3.6s.
Next generation seats! Oh wait... a bunch of owners had to wait months more for those...

:biggrin: Ha ha - this would actually be funny, expect for the fact that I paid $150.000 for the car

 

[Sad]

0-60 in 3.2s! Oh wait... they changed their metric to include a 1-ft rollout (which it didn't before), so it's really ~8-60 in 3.2s and 0-60 in ~3.6s.

Is that true??? Do you have the source of the info? This would be a real (additional) scandal!

 

[stopcrazypp]

ok - but the power meter and REST API is only how much energy is transfered into the motors, not what they put out. So it is diffently not 550 hp then.

It is unlikely you lose 22% of your power in the motor. The P85 was measured at 436 hp at the wheels and on REST API I believe the highest people have seen was 470hp (350kW).

Correct about the torque, but HP are measured with know factors, the weight of the drums etc. I was told by a dyno specialist. So the one thing they are 100% certain about is the measured hp and they agree that they can not measure the torque. This may also explain why Tesla is so reluctant to tell us the actual power of the P85D, or?

From what I can tell, all of the dyno tests far of the P85D requires easing the car in and was not actually running at full (like you would flooring it to get that 0-60 in 3.1 seconds). If the dyno can't handle full torque (but only partial torque) and the peak power point occurs near full torque (may or may not be true), then I don't see how the dyno test is valid given the car wasn't running at max capability.

 

[wk057]

Is that true??? Do you have the source of the info? This would be a real (additional) scandal!

Lots of data when I started a thread after going to the drag strip. Was confused about a discrepancy and ended up running into this tidbit.

P85D vs GTR - PerformanceBox data vs drag strip slip data... help?

P85D vs GTR - PerformanceBox data vs drag strip slip data... help? - Page 3

So far no one has shown 0-60 faster than 3.3s. @fiksegts got 3.45s (3.17s with rollout) from his pre-6.2 100%SOC run (from this graph). Considering he managed 3.05s with rollout post-6.2, I'd say the record is no faster than 3.33s.

---

Yes Tesla is an american company, but the P85 figures were not advertised with rollout AFAIK. Tesla therefore changed this policy on the P85D.

Even worse, is that the figures advertised else where in the world also use rollout, so buyers expecting an apples to apples comparison of two car's peak performance are being 'cheated'. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how fast the car is, Tesla shouldn't be deceptive: it's a matter of principal :/

 

[p85dk]

It is unlikely you lose 22% of your power in the motor. The P85 was measured at 436 hp at the wheels and on REST API I believe the highest people have seen was 470hp (350kW).

I agree that 22% loss would be to much for one electric motor. However the 400kW draw is for two motors, so the loss would be about twice the loss in a single motor. Furthermore the P85 results do not tell us anything about the P85D as the rear motor may be configured differently in the P85D - I don't think that the front motor is only getting about 50kW to work with.

From what I can tell, all of the dyno tests far of the P85D requires easing the car in and was not actually running at full (like you would flooring it to get that 0-60 in 3.1 seconds). If the dyno can't handle full torque (but only partial torque) and the peak power point occurs near full torque (may or may not be true), then I don't see how the dyno test is valid given the car wasn't running at max capability.

I tend to agree with you on this - I have pressed the dyno guys for coming up with a solution where we can kick the pedal at 0 mph