[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[stopcrazypp]

The phrase "691 hp" appeared in their specs. Are we supposed to believe that adding "motor power" to the end of that is supposed to not mean "system horsepower"? Prove it. Show me where they defined the term "motor power" to not mean system hp like every other manufacturer means. If they intentionally meant to do this and just thought we'd all be deceived by it because it modified what they meant by total hp i.e. not that actual hp produced by the vehicle being sold, then prove it. What could potential hp mean to any us? Why would we care if it could make some number higher than what they actually sold? Seriously, why would they mean something different for the P85D than for the 85D?

I don't believe they intended to mislead us with vague terminology. If they did, it would be *way* worse than if they were simply wrong.

I've tried to point it out multiple times, but obviously you do not agree. I'll make a last effort.

S60, they advertised 302 hp system power. On October 2014, they changed that to 380 hp "motor power", while also listing S85 at the same 380 hp "motor power".

How do you explain what 380 hp "motor power" means in that context? It clearly is not system power as we know the S60 does not make 380hp and we know it does not make the same power as an S85 (because of battery limitation).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...eement/page4?p=1076026&viewfull=1#post1076026

 

[MuppetOwl]

From the danish Tesla site 700hk ydeevne is in english translated to 700hp performance. So the danish did not get any information about motor power.

 

[stopcrazypp]

People aren't upset over the performance (which is pretty much as promised, outside of perhaps the whole European issue with rollout), they are upset over the number.

You've followed the thread. You know that's not an accurate statement.

I perhaps did not phrase that well. I mean the Tesla pretty much accomplished the performance numbers they promised (0-60, 1/4 mile). People are not complaining about that outside of the rollout situation.

As for the 691hp issue, people are upset over the performance that they project a 691hp EV would have, but they aren't upset over the performance Tesla promised specifically.

- - - Updated - - -

I do appreciate that the P85D is being being marketed differently in different regions/countries.

When I in Denmark ordered the car 24th of Januar both each motor power and the combines Power was advertised.

Together with the official launch of the P85D in october there was no reason for me to believe that the P85D could not deliver 691 hk (in europe 700 hk).

...

The other cars (forget orther manufacturors) the P85 and P85D deliver on what was advertised. Why not the Premium versoin of Model S ?

Cheers

Torben_E

From the danish Tesla site 700hk ydeevne is in english translated to 700hp performance. So the danish did not get any information about motor power.

From what I can tell ydeevne means the same thing as "motor power". Look at the S60 and S85 numbers on the same screenshots. Both were listed as 385 hk ydeeve. Now S85 is listed as 367 hk, 385 hk ydeeve.

This matches how they advertise "motor power". S60 and S85 advertised at 380 hp motor power. S85 now advertised at 373 hp and 382 hp motor power. S60 previously was 302 hp, it never made anywhere near 380 hp system power.

 

[MuppetOwl]

stopcrazypp: No i does not, ydeevne does not mean anything about motor power.

Norwegian and Danish is very similar languages so I can read danish without problem, we talk a bit different but we write very similar

If you look at the first older screenshot from when most did order the P85D. Only the ydeevne numbers are there.

 

[sorka]

I've tried to point it out multiple times, but obviously you do not agree. I'll make a last effort.

S60, they advertised 302 hp system power. On October 2014, they changed that to 380 hp "motor power", while also listing S85 at the same 380 hp "motor power".

How do you explain what 380 hp "motor power" means in that context? It clearly is not system power as we know the S60 does not make 380hp and we know it does not make the same power as an S85 (because of battery limitation).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...eement/page4?p=1076026&viewfull=1#post1076026

Show me where the S60 said system power.

Feel free to use the way back machine:

Model S | Tesla Motors

In March, all 4 variants of the Model S said "<x> hp motor power". There was no difference in terminology. The S60 and S85 said 380. If they don't produce the same power, then it's just a mistake on the website. Also, as I mentioned to you previously in that thread and you simply ignored me, I haven't seen a dyno for the the S60. How do you know it doesn't make 380 hp? The 0-60 times are different but that can easily be explained with a different ramp up rate.

 

[Torben_E]

No i does not, ydeevne does not mean anything about motor power.

Norwegian and Danish is very similar languages so I can read danish without problem, we talk a bit different but we write very similar

If you look at the first older screenshot from when most did order the P85D. Only the ydeevne numbers are there.

Hej Dennis, ja vores sprog er meget ens så her er fra Audi også på dansk......

Se også her... hvis ikke jeg tager fejl står der "den elektrisk drevne Audi R8 e-tron superbil opnår en ydeevne på 340 kW og et drejningsmoment på 920 Nm, "!

Sorry for those less strong in Scandinavian. It is the promotion of the Audi R8 e-tron and the Danish text talk about "yde evne". It is just to prove the case that also Audi use this expression.

Btw Dennis what is your best 0-100 km/h time in the P85D and does it fully meet you expectation in terms of that result ?

Br

Torben

 

[darthy001]

From what I can tell ydeevne means the same thing as "motor power". Look at the S60 and S85 numbers on the same screenshots. Both were listed as 385 hk ydeeve. Now S85 is listed as 367 hk, 385 hk ydeeve.

This matches how they advertise "motor power". S60 and S85 advertised at 380 hp motor power. S85 now advertised at 373 hp and 382 hp motor power. S60 previously was 302 hp, it never made anywhere near 380 hp system power.

I have written this before in direct response to you and Dennis87 also wrote this now, but you are 100% wrong here.

Ydeevne=Performance. All screenshots including those by Torben here today has no reference at all to "Motor Power" or anything similar to that. It simply says the car has 700hp.

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Hej Dennis, ja vores sprog er meget ens så forklar mig lige dette....

View attachment 90773

hvis ikke jeg tager fejl står der "den elektrisk drevne Audi R8 e-tron superbil opnår en ydeevne på 340 kW og et drejningsmoment på 920 Nm, "!

Sorry for those less strong in Scandinavian. It is the promotion of the Audi R8 e-tron and the Danish text talk about "yde evne". I have asked Dennis to expain it to me.

Btw Dennis what is your best 0-100 km/h time in the P85D and does it fully meet you expectation in terms of that result ?

Br

Torben

I read that as just the same as Tesla wrote. The R8 e-tron has 340kw of power which translates to 455hp. Just the same as wikipedia lists it at Just a good example that "ydeevne" is wellknown way of representing power in a common way.

 

[rns-e]

Motor power is a specific technical term that have no business in marketing material or order sites for regular people. 'Ydeevne' is a broad, not very specific, danish word descriping what kind of performance you can expect from the specific product. You can use the word in a variaty of different sentenses and also areas that have absolut nothing to do with energiering, cars etc. AND Tesla is still using it - maybe they have a bad translator, do not care, or don't know better? But the two words do not have the same meaning - not even close. Performance = Ydeevne in the car world.

 

[rns-e]

@WK057 - someone just got him self a McLaren F1 1998 McLaren F1 'LM-Specification' | Monterey 2015 | RM Sotheby's - paid $13,750,000.00

Maybe you can have Sothebys hand him a note asking him to contact you for the day at the airstrip It may be Elon buying up all the F1's so that we can't test ...

It has 680 hp and is a little lighter, but the P85D is electric, so they should match up perfectly

 

[SDRick]

Can anyone answer the question below for me?


If you were searching through a electric motor catalog looking for identical replacement motors for the P85D what would be motor power specification be for each motor and would it total 691 hp?

 

[sorka]

Can anyone answer the question below for me?


If you were searching through a electric motor catalog looking for identical replacement motors for the P85D what would be motor power specification be for each motor and would it total 691 hp?

Since Tesla actually makes their own AC induction motors right there in Fremont I don't think there is an answer to that question.

 

[hpham007]

Can anyone answer the question below for me?


If you were searching through a electric motor catalog looking for identical replacement motors for the P85D what would be motor power specification be for each motor and would it total 691 hp?

Please, you're really stretching and digging to justify Tesla's false advertising. It's irrelevant to potential motor power, what matters what hp the car is capable of producing. If you accept Tesla's foolishness, then any ICE manufacturer can claim their engines produce 50 percent more than they're capable. How? Just add a turbocharger, some nitrous oxide and tuning. The potential is there, you just need a few upgrades. Are you ok with that reasoning? This is essentially what Tesla is doing.

To answer your question, buying something with potential specs and never having the capability of using it doesn't turn it into something that it is not. If I buy 10 gigs of ram but my motherboard only supports and works with 8 gigs, do I now magically have a computer operating with 10 gigs of ram?

 

[sorka]

Please, you're really stretching and digging to justify Tesla's false advertising. It's irrelevant to potential motor power, what matters what hp the car is capable of producing. If you accept Tesla's foolishness, then any ICE manufacturer can claim their engines produce 50 percent more than they're capable. How? Just add a turbocharger, some nitrous oxide and tuning. The potential is there, you just need a few upgrades. Are you ok with that reasoning? This is essentially what Tesla is doing.

Some car comes with a particular motor and the whole vehicle is rated at x hp. The same motor, built exactly the same is also available as a crate motor but is rated at a higher y hp. Why? Because the crate motor was tested with different intake, exhaust, accessories, or higher boost.

Many cars come with motors that can produce much more power than they make in the car they come in but the manufacturers *never* spec the car with the power the motor could produce. They spec the motor power for the power it does produce with the accessories, intake, and exhaust that will be attached to it in the production vehicle.

The most common scenario is the turbo charged car that is running a level of boost that provided a high reliability margin and thus lower long term repair cost under warranty for all drivetrain components that handle the power including the engine. Yet many folks will increase the boost of the stock turbos through an add on boost controller or an aftermarket software update.

So yes, this is beyond reaching.

 

[SDRick]

Please, you're really stretching and digging to justify Tesla's false advertising. It's irrelevant to potential motor power, what matters what hp the car is capable of producing. If you accept Tesla's foolishness, then any ICE manufacturer can claim their engines produce 50 percent more than they're capable. How? Just add a turbocharger, some nitrous oxide and tuning. The potential is there, you just need a few upgrades. Are you ok with that reasoning? This is essentially what Tesla is doing.

To answer your question, buying something with potential specs and never having the capability of using it doesn't turn it into something that it is not. If I buy 10 gigs of ram but my motherboard only supports and works with 8 gigs, do I now magically have a computer operating with 10 gigs of ram?

Your computer analogy supports my point. Your computer would not utilize all 10 gigs of RAM but as in Tesla's case it may perform as good or better than computers that actually do support 10 gigs. It would not be the first time where let's say 2400 MHz RAM was installed on a system where the motherboad or CPU that does not support that speed. If the computers specs stated 2400 MHz of RAM installed, that would be a correct statement.

I am not condoning or supporting Tesla's methods of advertising or promotion but it does not appear to be inaccurate. Lacking in details, of course.

 

[sorka]

I am not condoning or supporting Tesla's methods of advertising or promotion but it does not appear to be inaccurate. Lacking in details, of course.

only if you ascribe to "motor power" as a term added to specify what the motors could theoretically produce if they had enough input power and not what they actually produce in the vehicle as configured. But nobody has provided any proof that this is what Tesla meant and Tesla has never confirmed this interpretation. It's a lot better for them to simply be wrong than to have intentionally changed what the automotive industry means by horsepower without making it very clear. That would be perceived as intentionally deceptive. I prefer to think Tesla just got ahead of themselves and goofed. The fix couldn't be done in software as they had planned to and eluded to but instead had to make some minor hardware changes to some weak links in the power delivery chain.

Do you think elon, at 2:03 didn't mean the horsepower in regular automative industry terms? Do you think he meant some much higher value that the PD doesn't actually make? Do you think he was just talking about the motor ratings at 2:03?

[video]https://youtu.be/GiG6z_H2m4M[/video]

 

[SDRick]

only if you ascribe to "motor power" as a term added to specify what the motors could theoretically produce if they had enough input power and not what they actually produce in the vehicle as configured. But nobody has provided any proof that this is what Tesla meant and Tesla has never confirmed this interpretation. It's a lot better for them to simply be wrong than to have intentionally changed what the automotive industry means by horsepower without making it very clear. That would be perceived as intentionally deceptive. I prefer to think Tesla just got ahead of themselves and goofed. The fix couldn't be done in software as they had planned to and eluded to but instead had to make some minor hardware changes to some weak links in the power delivery chain.

Do you think elon, at 2:03 didn't mean the horsepower in regular automative industry terms? Do you think he meant some much higher value that the PD doesn't actually make? Do you think he was just talking about the motor ratings at 2:03?

[video]https://youtu.be/GiG6z_H2m4M[/video]

As to the video, when I hear horse power claims in the automotive industry I am always skeptical on what that actually means. As to horsepower claims for electric vehicles even more so. There are many variables.

Even something as simple as a 0 to 60 claim I now learn has variables and different interpretations.

I agree in that Tesla and Elon may have got ahead of their skis with the claims and now are on the back of their skis as to clarifications..

 

[stopcrazypp]

Show me where the S60 said system power.

Feel free to use the way back machine:

Model S | Tesla Motors

In March, all 4 variants of the Model S said "<x> hp motor power". There was no difference in terminology. The S60 and S85 said 380. If they don't produce the same power, then it's just a mistake on the website. Also, as I mentioned to you previously in that thread and you simply ignored me, I haven't seen a dyno for the the S60. How do you know it doesn't make 380 hp? The 0-60 times are different but that can easily be explained with a different ramp up rate.

I didn't say they used the term "system power" specifically, what I mean is when they say "hp" with no modifiers, they mean system power. When they say "hp motor power" they mean something different. I'm surprised how none of you can see that.

For the record, the most power people have recorded for the S60 is 240kW (or 322hp).
http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/tesla-may-be-under-rating-model-s-output

Another example of motor power:
70D: 328 hp / 259 hp front and rear motor power
85D: 417 hp / 259 hp front and rear motor power
S70: 315 hp / 382 hp motor power
S85: 373 hp / 382 hp motor power

http://www.teslamotors.com/models#battery-options

Notice how the models with the same motor/inverter have the same "motor power" rating, even though the S70/70D is limited by battery to a lower system power. It think it is fairly obvious what motor power means in such a context.

Again, I should point out I am not arguing about convention, or if it is misleading. I just want acknowledgement what Tesla is saying when they say "motor power".

 

[brianman]

1. Point your browser at Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles
2. Choose Model S at the top
3. Choose Specs in the translucent gray bar
4. Observe:
70D 328hp
85D 417hp
P85D (unspecified) but oh btw here's some motor power numbers
70 315hp
85 373hp

I have trouble interpreting this as honest, trustworthy, and straightforward. As such, I find it difficult recommending the P85D (or the P90D) to interested buyers. It also tarnishes the Tesla brand in my eyes.

What do I do about it? Not sure. I have trouble finding the right way to present this feedback to Tesla in a way that leads to a positive result.

I can't really explain it any better than this, apparently.

 

[darthy001]

1. Point your browser at Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles
2. Choose Model S at the top
3. Choose Specs in the translucent gray bar
4. Observe:
70D 328hp
85D 417hp
P85D (unspecified) but oh btw here's some motor power numbers
70 315hp
85 373hp

I have trouble interpreting this as honest, trustworthy, and straightforward. As such, I find it difficult recommending the P85D (or the P90D) to interested buyers. It also tarnishes the Tesla brand in my eyes.

What do I do about it? Not sure. I have trouble finding the right way to present this feedback to Tesla in a way that leads to a positive result.

I can't really explain it any better than this, apparently.

Hmmm... Thats as simple as it can be written 100% agreement from here...

 

[thegruf]

1. Point your browser at Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles
2. Choose Model S at the top
3. Choose Specs in the translucent gray bar
4. Observe:
70D 328hp
85D 417hp
P85D (unspecified) but oh btw here's some motor power numbers
70 315hp
85 373hp

I have trouble interpreting this as honest, trustworthy, and straightforward. As such, I find it difficult recommending the P85D (or the P90D) to interested buyers. It also tarnishes the Tesla brand in my eyes.

What do I do about it? Not sure. I have trouble finding the right way to present this feedback to Tesla in a way that leads to a positive result.

I can't really explain it any better than this, apparently.

well maybe that is because (now) the P85D doesnt have a fixed power rating as the other models do.
P85D can be Insane or Ludicrous, same motors, different outputs.

(different situation prior to Ludicrous though)