[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[wk057]

I watched it very closely and have come to several conclusions. First, notice how the meter starts to decline at 64 MPH when the throttle is let up.

The P85D hits maximum power at 36 MPH. Elon already stated that 0-30 time isn't improved so at 36 MPH in a P90DL the power won't be any more at 36 MPH than it is in the P85D. The power will build and peak at some higher MPH. Given that they let off the throttle shortly after 60 MPH, it's unlikely that they would have hit the peak by then. So until someone posts a better video with WOT up to 80 MPH or faster or a REST log of WOT up to 80+ MPH, I don't think we have any evidence in this video that it won't make the power needed to reach a 10.9 1/4 mile.

That said, it seems likely that the power should have reached maximum by 60 MPH, but we don't know this for sure and we don't know that this was really a WOT run. We don't even know that it wasn't on sport mode vs L mode. Yes the video shows them messing with the setting but that doesn't mean anything.

I guess what I really mean is the video is interesting but not meaningful.

I've gone through and spliced together the launch. It doesn't appear to be missing any frames and was just split for the show off video. I'm working on stabilizing the dash view of the launch as best as possible. It looks like the 0 to 60 time (no rollout nonsense) comes to about 3.47s, +/- a frame (0.03 seconds). Using the 7 MPH @ "1-ft rollout" info from my P85D and applying that here gives 2.87 seconds 7-60 (which is what Tesla's "0"-60 numbers are).

The power reaches current P85D readings at about 33-34 MPH. It continues to climb until about 45 MPH where it hangs just below the 480 kW tick for the remainder of the launch through ~64 MPH.

 

[sorka]

Wrong. Apples and oranges.

You are ignoring the fact that the TMS has no gears. Even if it had 691hp the torque fades of well before even 50mph. The RS7 has gears which enables it to deliver optimum power at 70-90mph, something the TMS never will.

You're confusing torque with power. Gearing keeps ICEs in near their peak power, not their peak torque. The Model S doesn't need gears and here's why:

Notice how flat the power curve is. This removes the decline you start to see with vbox dyno estimations because there is no air resistance when the car is standing still. Does torque drop off? Of course it does. Torque is a function of RPM and power. It's the power that does the work, not the torque.

That power curve is flat all the way up to the end of the dyno run (75 MPH). That said the efficiency of the motors does start to drop off well after 100 MPH so it does become and issue at much higher speeds, but for typical 70-90 passing speeds, not so much.

If you could make a super efficient CVT you'd use that instead of gearing to keep an ICE at exactly it's peak power rather than gears but CVTs or too inefficient.

 

[AWDtsla]

Wrong. Apples and oranges.

You are ignoring the fact that the TMS has no gears. Even if it had 691hp the torque fades of well before even 50mph. The RS7 has gears which enables it to deliver optimum power at 70-90mph, something the TMS never will.

You are in fantasy land about how ICE vehicle works. Try a test being in top gear, and having to either manually or automatically downshift, wait for the turbo chargers to get up to speed, and finally hit 90. Tesla has a huge time advantage in being able to effect a certain amount of kinetic energy (read: velocity) while the competition is still winding up. Oh, and gearing means that the car can't even put it's peak HP down unless you're lucky enough to be in the right rev range, so if you think you're getting the nameplate power, you're very very wrong.


ICE freakin sucks, you're all looking at this wrong.

 

[sorka]

I've gone through and spliced together the launch. It doesn't appear to be missing any frames and was just split for the show off video. I'm working on stabilizing the dash view of the launch as best as possible. It looks like the 0 to 60 time (no rollout nonsense) comes to about 3.47s, +/- a frame (0.03 seconds). Using the 7 MPH @ "1-ft rollout" info from my P85D and applying that here gives 2.87 seconds 7-60 (which is what Tesla's "0"-60 numbers are).

The power reaches current P85D readings at about 33-34 MPH. It continues to climb until about 45 MPH where it hangs just below the 480 kW tick for the remainder of the launch through ~64 MPH.

I didn't notice it rock solid at 45 MPH without climbing further. If that's that case, then it's hard to imagine that's not peak power unless there's some other curve that kicks in later.

Really can't wait to see someone use Powertools or something to collect some logs on the P90DL

 

[wk057]

I didn't notice it rock solid at 45 MPH without climbing further. If that's that case, then it's hard to imagine that's not peak power unless there's some other curve that kicks in later.

Really can't wait to see someone use Powertools or something on the P90DL

Yeah, at 45 MPH and above on the video at hand the power meter edge doesn't move at all relative to other static items in the shot. Uploading my cropped/mostly stable video in a sec.

 

[legislator]

No, I'm absolutely not confusing power and torque, that would be you by the way you phrased your other text. I also see how conveniently your chart stops where the power drops at 75mph. You were referring to 70-90mph where the TMS is sub-optimal without gearing. With gearing that power would be accessible at a even higher speed.

Also: Google the good old P/S85/S60 power/torque charts and you see how the rear engine torque drops from 50mph.

- - - Updated - - -

You are in fantasy land about how ICE vehicle works. Try a test being in top gear, and having to either manually or automatically downshift, wait for the turbo chargers to get up to speed, and finally hit 90. Tesla has a huge time advantage in being able to effect a certain amount of kinetic energy (read: velocity) while the competition is still winding up. Oh, and gearing means that the car can't even put it's peak HP down unless you're lucky enough to be in the right rev range, so if you think you're getting the nameplate power, you're very very wrong.

It's not about luck. When you master to drive a manual you can easily manage to be in right gear at the right rev range to make optimal use of the engine. The RS7 would be able to hit maximum power, possible in two different gears between 70-90mph. The TMS would not. It's really only math and skill.

 

[wk057]

Here is my cropped and mostly stabilized video that focuses on the dash of the P90D w/Ludicrous Mode video. (Side note, I don't like the "P90DL" stuff that's been thrown around for some reason... heh)

1/4 speed version at the end.

P90D with Ludicrous Mode Launch - Dash view - YouTube

 

[AWDtsla]

It's not about luck. When you master to drive a manual you can easily manage to be in right gear at the right rev range to make optimal use of the engine. The RS7 would be able to hit maximum power, possible in two different gears between 70-90mph. The TMS would not. It's really only math and skill.

You're delusional! You're discounting the whole time that I bothered to try and describe. Unless you're going to cruise down the highways in 3rd gear, it's simply not going to happen. Oh, and the turbo's will still be idling even after you've done your superman shift into an optimal gear that may not even exist for that speed range. No human can compete with an electronic gearbox, and no electronic gearbox can compete with NO gearbox at all.

 

[wk057]

No, I'm absolutely not confusing power and torque, that would be you by the way you phrased your other text. I also see how conveniently your chart stops where the power drops at 75mph. You were referring to 70-90mph where the TMS is sub-optimal without gearing. With gearing that power would be accessible at a even higher speed.

Also: Google the good old P/S85/S60 power/torque charts and you see how the rear engine torque drops from 50mph.

Actually, I've not noticed an upper power taper until some other variable causes it (low SoC, pack temperature, motor temperature, etc). If I stomp it at 60 MPH it will go to full power (up to the ~415kW number if SoC is high enough). So, not sure where this info comes from. Torque drops with RPM, power remains constant until... well forever until something limits it.

 

[sorka]

I've gone through and spliced together the launch. It doesn't appear to be missing any frames and was just split for the show off video. I'm working on stabilizing the dash view of the launch as best as possible. It looks like the 0 to 60 time (no rollout nonsense) comes to about 3.47s, +/- a frame (0.03 seconds). Using the 7 MPH @ "1-ft rollout" info from my P85D and applying that here gives 2.87 seconds 7-60 (which is what Tesla's "0"-60 numbers are).

The power reaches current P85D readings at about 33-34 MPH. It continues to climb until about 45 MPH where it hangs just below the 480 kW tick for the remainder of the launch through ~64 MPH.

Interesting. So I'm having a hard time seeing how this is different than the P85D unless the range is so compressed that we just can't tell:

My P85D left, P90DL right:

It's hard to tell if the P90DL is higher at all.

- - - Updated - - -

No, I'm absolutely not confusing power and torque, that would be you by the way you phrased your other text. I also see how conveniently your chart stops where the power drops at 75mph. You were referring to 70-90mph where the TMS is sub-optimal without gearing. With gearing that power would be accessible at a even higher speed.

Oh, so you think the that power curve just suddenly falls off a cliff exactly at 75 MPH and that I faked that dyno graph? Really?

The statement you made about torque is wrong. You meant power. Multi gear transmissions keep ICEs near their peak power, not their peak torque. Do you disagree with this?

I agree that the efficiency of the motor eventually declines but it's not at exactly 75 mph or even shortly after that.

 

[wk057]

My P85D left, P90DL right

Your attachments seem to have failed

 

[sorka]

Here is my cropped and mostly stabilized video that focuses on the dash of the P90D w/Ludicrous Mode video. (Side note, I don't like the "P90DL" stuff that's been thrown around for some reason... heh)

1/4 speed version at the end.

P90D with Ludicrous Mode Launch - Dash view - YouTube

Very nifty. A couple of things to consider. I just checked a bunch of vbox runs and the 1 ft rollout on my 0-60 runs is consistently between 0.449 and 0.451 seconds to 1 ft at 4.5 MPH. Are you using a full 1 g to calculate the 1 ft rollout by any chance?

Also, some 0-60 examples with and without the 1 ft.

With 1 ft:
3.188
3.153

Same runs without 1 ft:

3.502
3.58

So on my xbox, I'm only seeing about a 0.3 second difference. This makes me wonder if this was really a P90DL speedometer video.

- - - Updated - - -

You're delusional! You're discounting the whole time that I bothered to try and describe. Unless you're going to cruise down the highways in 3rd gear, it's simply not going to happen. Oh, and the turbo's will still be idling even after you've done your superman shift into an optimal gear that may not even exist for that speed range. No human can compete with an electronic gearbox, and no electronic gearbox can compete with NO gearbox at all.

Keep in mind a fast DCT can complete a downshift in about 100 ms, so I'm not sure the Tesla has that much of an advantage except for the first 1/10th of a second.

- - - Updated - - -

Your attachments seem to have failed

Yea. Strange. Just re-added them and they're showing up now. But they did right after I posted too.

 

[Alipapa]

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

Porsche Panamera turbo S claim to go 0-60 in 3.6 sec (3.4 in the video) with 570HP and still beat the P85D, which claim to go 0-60 in 3.2 sec (3.6 in the video) with 691hp in a drag race. Isn't the P85D suppose to be the world fastest Sedan? Why is the P85D not only beaten in 1/4 mile, but also slower in 0-60 test? How many more test and data do Tesla want us to dig out before they will response to this matter?

 

[wk057]

Very nifty. A couple of things to consider. I just checked a bunch of vbox runs and the 1 ft rollout on my 0-60 runs is consistently between 0.449 and 0.451 seconds to 1 ft at 4.5 MPH. Are you using a full 1 g to calculate the 1 ft rollout by any chance?

Also, some 0-60 examples with and without the 1 ft.

With 1 ft:
3.188
3.153

Same runs without 1 ft:

3.502
3.58

So on my xbox, I'm only seeing about a 0.3 second difference. This makes me wonder if this was really a P90DL speedometer video.

I'm tempted to believe the video is a P90D+L. In the original video the date is good, the time/name matches shots that show the Ludicrous slider, etc.

Specifically, the P85D power tops out with the meter over top of the "0" in the 480kW label. The P90D here tops out with the meter over top of the 8. So, not a huge change based on this, but I'm going to chalk that up to the ~75% SoC in the video.

For rollout in my p-box data vs my drag stip data the drag strip clock always started +/- 1 MPH of me hitting 7 MPH. I've been using this metric for "rollout".

So yeah, about a 0.3 second overall difference based on this video. Not impressed.

- - - Updated - - -

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

Porsche Panamera turbo S claim to go 0-60 in 3.6 sec (3.4 in the video) with 570HP and still beat the P85D, which claim to go 0-60 in 3.2 sec (3.6 in the video) with 691hp in a drag race. Isn't the P85D suppose to be the world fastest Sedan? Why is the P85D not only beaten in 1/4 mile, but also slower in 0-60 test?

Looks like the non-US testing was reporting true 0-60 times, not the misleading with rollout "0"-60 times, for one, which is fine. And it's beaten because the 570HP Porsche actually has more power.

Yet another Tesla advertising caveat to keep in mind is that starting in October with the launch of the P85D (pretty sure) Tesla stopped using true 0-60 times and started advertising "0"-60 times with 1-ft rollout... which artificially lowers them about 0.3 to 0.5 seconds.

 

[sorka]

I'm tempted to believe the video is a P90D+L. In the original video the date is good, the time/name matches shots that show the Ludicrous slider, etc.

Specifically, the P85D power tops out with the meter over top of the "0" in the 480kW label. The P90D here tops out with the meter over top of the 8. So, not a huge change based on this, but I'm going to chalk that up to the ~75% SoC in the video.

For rollout in my p-box data vs my drag stip data the drag strip clock always started +/- 1 MPH of me hitting 7 MPH. I've been using this metric for "rollout".

So yeah, about a 0.3 second overall difference based on this video. Not impressed.

- - - Updated - - -



Looks like the non-US testing was reporting true 0-60 times, not the misleading with rollout "0"-60 times.

Got it.

FYI, looking through more vbox runs, I've gotten as low as the high 3.4s 0-60 without any rollout and tons right in the 3.5 second range with SOCs as low as 80%.

It does look like it might be covering more of the 8. But it also looks like there's just as much 0 to the right of the needle in both pictures. The video is shacky resulting in exposure widening the needle a lot.


As usual, awesome video work!

 

[JER]

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

Porsche Panamera turbo S claim to go 0-60 in 3.6 sec (3.4 in the video) with 570HP and still beat the P85D, which claim to go 0-60 in 3.2 sec (3.6 in the video) with 691hp in a drag race. Isn't the P85D suppose to be the world fastest Sedan? Why is the P85D not only beaten in 1/4 mile, but also slower in 0-60 test?

There's the with versus without roll-out issue of course.

The driver's remarks do suggest he doesn't know how to launch an electric car properly. If he was two-footing it like you might in an ICE launch, that would explain the "hesitation off the line" he reported.

"The Porsche does have the advantage of launch control..." Nope. Nothing for a launch controller to do in a Model S. Quickly plant your foot and let traction control do its thing.

And yes, as others have pointed out, the difference in power to weight ratio becomes the dominant factor at speed. That plus the botched launch make for a loss throughout the speed range.

 

[wk057]

Got it.

FYI, looking through more vbox runs, I've gotten as low as the high 3.4s 0-60 without any rollout and tons right in the 3.5 second range with SOCs as low as 80%.

It does look like it might be covering more of the 8. But it also looks like there's just as much 0 to the right of the needle in both pictures. The video is shacky resulting in exposure widening the needle a lot.


As usual, awesome video work!

Thanks

I think if the power meter is indeed fully exponential between ticks (as in 50% of the way between 240 and 480 isn't actually 360) then the small distance from covering a bit of the "0" to covering a bit of the "8" could be a pretty substantial difference.

Honestly, I haven't had time to confirm if this is the case or not by watching REST numbers while holding power steady at say, between 30 and 60 kW or 0 and 30 kW. If REST showed 45 kW and 15kW with the line in the center of the marks, then it would be linear between the ticks. If it reports something lower then it would be nonlinear.

 

[dsm363]

P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

Porsche Panamera turbo S claim to go 0-60 in 3.6 sec (3.4 in the video) with 570HP and still beat the P85D, which claim to go 0-60 in 3.2 sec (3.6 in the video) with 691hp in a drag race. Isn't the P85D suppose to be the world fastest Sedan? Why is the P85D not only beaten in 1/4 mile, but also slower in 0-60 test? How many more test and data do Tesla want us to dig out before they will response to this matter?

Did the Model S when step on the acceleration right away? Seemed an unusually slow start for an EV. I don't see how you can screw up a launch in a Model S though.

 

[Andyw2100]

This may be a completely crazy idea. I'm really grasping at more straws, hoping that the video isn't really the first indication that we're all going to be let down again. But is something along the lines of the following possible...

Could it be that somehow Tesla never really intended for P90Ds to be out in the wild before firmware 7. And that being the case, the power meter in the firmware on the car isn't accurately depicting the amount of power the car is really putting out, because the power meter in firmware 6.x was not designed to measure and/or display that much power? (I know the needle isn't being "pinned", but this is all digital, so who knows what's really going on.) If at the point it came down to either releasing the P90D with firmware 6.x, and a power meter that didn't completely reflect accurate power usage (that 99% of people would never have any clue was inaccurate), or not releasing it, I don't think that would have been a tough decision for Tesla, based on past history.

There's probably nothing to this, but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.

 

[sorka]

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

Porsche Panamera turbo S claim to go 0-60 in 3.6 sec (3.4 in the video) with 570HP and still beat the P85D, which claim to go 0-60 in 3.2 sec (3.6 in the video) with 691hp in a drag race. Isn't the P85D suppose to be the world fastest Sedan? Why is the P85D not only beaten in 1/4 mile, but also slower in 0-60 test? How many more test and data do Tesla want us to dig out before they will response to this matter?

Anyone who's watched videos of P8D launches will tell you that particular example was a very slow launch. Most likely the guy didn't slam the pedal to the floor. Ironically, a medium quick WOT pedal often results in a little TC on my P85D. If I slam the pedal to the floor instead, I never get TC.

They also didn't repeat the test at all or if they did they left it out of the video.