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UPS, part 2

zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
326
99
US-NH
There is a really long UPS thread from a while ago, and what I am hoping for in this one is to get a listing of UPS models that work seamlessly with Powerwalls. I have an APC Back-UPS NS 650M1 that goes into battery mode whenever the grid goes out and Powerwalls kick in even though we had Tesla lower the frequency to 63Hz (verified with Kill-a-Watt at <=62.9) and the Back-UPS is rated for 50/60 Hz + – 3. So, what UPS do you have working with Powerwalls set to 63 Hz and not going into battery mode when grid goes out?
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
7,701
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Riverside Co. CA
The Eatons in that thread work (I have one). I also have cyberpower ones that work, but my frequency is set to 62hz not 63. Your APC would likely work if you got tesla to lower the frequency to 62hz.

You really likely have 2 choices. Buy the Eatons that work up to even 65hz, or get tesla to lower it to 62 or even 62.5 hz and dont buy anything additional.

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-US550V...=1&keywords=Eaton+3S550&qid=1614784239&sr=8-1
 

wjgjr

Active Member
May 11, 2020
1,064
803
Silver Spring, MD
The Eatons in that thread work (I have one). I also have cyberpower ones that work, but my frequency is set to 62hz not 63. Your APC would likely work if you got tesla to lower the frequency to 62hz.

You really likely have 2 choices. Buy the Eatons that work up to even 65hz, or get tesla to lower it to 62 or even 62.5 hz and dont buy anything additional.

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-US550V...=1&keywords=Eaton+3S550&qid=1614784239&sr=8-1
I second the Eatons. I have four of them, from a 550VA through a 1500VA model, and have not had a single complaint from them during off-grid operations.
 

zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
326
99
US-NH
Thanks for the Eaton suggestions. Looks like they go up to 70 Hz. Dealing with Tesla has been a non-starter as each time they kick it over to 2nd level support and I never hear back. The original downgrade to 63Hz was at install time when the tech was on the phone with them. I'll probably need to replace the battery on the APCs soon, so I don't mind switching over to something else.
 
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zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
326
99
US-NH
Interesting that Amazon itself doesn't sell the Eaton 3S, only third-party sellers. Looks like Walmart and Newegg carries it though.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
7,701
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Riverside Co. CA
Interesting that Amazon itself doesn't sell the Eaton 3S, only third-party sellers. Looks like Walmart and Newegg carries it though.

I just looked at my amazon order (I got it last year shortly after getting my powerwalls), and it was also through a third party, not amazon directly. When ordering from Amazon, I tend to avoid third parties, but I remember being eager at the time to get "the right / best thing" because I didnt know if tesla would lower the frequency.

I got the eaton, and tested it (before tesla lowered my frequency) and as others reported it worked fine (but other things in my house didnt work fine, but that discussion is in that other thread lol). So, I contacted tesla and got them to lower it. It was pretty painless actually, but I didnt get to pick what they lowered it to, they just picked a number.

With that being said, my solar was installed by solar city, and my powerwalls were installed by tesla, so they had all the exact specs of my equipment in their files.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would purchase the eaton (I buy stuff from newegg too sometimes so im sure that would be fine as well), and still keep escalating to tesla that "your microwave is running strange, your lights flicker, and your APC battery backup units are still malfunctioning. with the frequency set to 63 hz, can you please have tier 2 re evaluate and set to 62hz or 62.5 hz)?"

They have been unwilling for most to go below 62, but I suspect you might be able to get them to go to 62.5hz. In any case I am de railing this thread, because its about the UPS devices, so I will stop now, lol.
 
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gpez

Member
Apr 25, 2019
629
505
USA
I just looked at my amazon order (I got it last year shortly after getting my powerwalls), and it was also through a third party, not amazon directly. When ordering from Amazon, I tend to avoid third parties, but I remember being eager at the time to get "the right / best thing" because I didnt know if tesla would lower the frequency.

I got the eaton, and tested it (before tesla lowered my frequency) and as others reported it worked fine (but other things in my house didnt work fine, but that discussion is in that other thread lol). So, I contacted tesla and got them to lower it. It was pretty painless actually, but I didnt get to pick what they lowered it to, they just picked a number.

With that being said, my solar was installed by solar city, and my powerwalls were installed by tesla, so they had all the exact specs of my equipment in their files.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would purchase the eaton (I buy stuff from newegg too sometimes so im sure that would be fine as well), and still keep escalating to tesla that "your microwave is running strange, your lights flicker, and your APC battery backup units are still malfunctioning. with the frequency set to 63 hz, can you please have tier 2 re evaluate and set to 62hz or 62.5 hz)?"

They have been unwilling for most to go below 62, but I suspect you might be able to get them to go to 62.5hz. In any case I am de railing this thread, because its about the UPS devices, so I will stop now, lol.

One thing I think people keep forgetting is that even though the Eaton UPSs are tolerant of frequency changes all the way up to 70hz your computer's power supply is likely not. The Intel ATX standard and subsequent power supply design guidelines state that the maximum input frequency is 63hz: Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors (intel.com) (page 14). Exceeding that limit could cause all sorts of problems, from crashes all the way up to equipment damage. Of course some PSUs may have higher tolerances but that will vary by manufacturer and model.

upload_2021-3-3_9-15-19.png


Your best approach by far is to get Tesla to reduce the maximum frequency of your system below 63hz with 62hz being a good value. Getting a UPS that is tolerant of high frequencies is a band aid and not a very good one.
 
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jboy210

Supporting Member
Dec 2, 2016
4,819
2,962
Northern California
We have a number of CyberPower units that work well at the 62 Hz maximum Tesla set for our system. Tesla asked for the UPS manufacturer and specific model number and use that information to determine the maximum amount the TEG should raise the frequency to shut down the inverters. The model numbers we have are of the form xxxPFCLCD, where xxx is the capacity, ex 850.

We have had a couple of outages, and with a maximum frequency of 62 Hz have had no issues with electronic devices and the UPSes when the TEG shutdown the inverters. We have Delta M-4 and M-8 inverters.
 
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eml2

Member
Sep 28, 2017
256
192
Massachusetts
I have 2 Tripp Lite UPS (OMNIVS1000 and G1000U) that I bought many years ago. Both work fine when my Powerwall is at 98%+ and grid is out.. I haven't asked Tesla to lower the frequency.

OTOH, I also have a Cyberpower that doesn't work with Powerwall at 98%+ and grid is out.
 
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zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
326
99
US-NH
One thing I think people keep forgetting is that even though the Eaton UPSs are tolerant of frequency changes all the way up to 70hz your computer's power supply is likely not. The Intel ATX standard and subsequent power supply design guidelines state that the maximum input frequency is 63hz: Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors (intel.com) (page 14). Exceeding that limit could cause all sorts of problems, from crashes all the way up to equipment damage. Of course some PSUs may have higher tolerances but that will vary by manufacturer and model.

Do the Eatons manage the frequency in any way (i.e., supply it at 60Hz even if AC input is greater), or are those the $$$ wave converting UPS only?
 

gpez

Member
Apr 25, 2019
629
505
USA
Do the Eatons manage the frequency in any way (i.e., supply it at 60Hz even if AC input is greater), or are those the $$$ wave converting UPS only?

There are 3 types of UPSs, in order of cost: standby, line interactive, and online. Standby provides no regulation until the battery kicks in. Line interactive can boost or reduce voltage but not frequency. Only online models, the most expensive, provide output regulation of both voltage and frequency when not on battery. Eaton makes online UPSes, but they're very pricy, such as the 9SX Double conversion UPS | Network UPS | 9SX | Eaton. A quick search shows that a 1000 VA 9SX model is ~$1300 retail.

The Eaton 3S UPS which many here have suggested is standby (Eaton 3S UPS | Home & Office Equipment | Eaton) and the Eaton 5S UPS is line interactive (Eaton 5S UPS (550-1500 VA) 230V). Neither provide output frequency regulation until the battery kicks in.

Eaton has a nice FAQ for this: Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) FAQs | Eaton.

tl;dr those are the $$$ UPSes :)
 

charlesj

Active Member
Oct 22, 2019
1,053
218
Monterey, CA
There is a really long UPS thread from a while ago, and what I am hoping for in this one is to get a listing of UPS models that work seamlessly with Powerwalls. I have an APC Back-UPS NS 650M1 that goes into battery mode whenever the grid goes out and Powerwalls kick in even though we had Tesla lower the frequency to 63Hz (verified with Kill-a-Watt at <=62.9) and the Back-UPS is rated for 50/60 Hz + – 3. So, what UPS do you have working with Powerwalls set to 63 Hz and not going into battery mode when grid goes out?
I had Tesla lower mine to 61Hz as Enphase inverter has a cut off frequency of 60.5 Hz.
Have them lower it to 62Hz?
 

zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
326
99
US-NH
Just heard from Tesla that they lowered the frequency to 62Hz. Hopefully that resolves it. If not, will likely go the Eaton route, keeping in mind @gpez warning on the equipment hooked up.Thanks all for the feedback.
 
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gpez

Member
Apr 25, 2019
629
505
USA
Just heard from Tesla that they lowered the frequency to 62Hz. Hopefully that resolves it. If not, will likely go the Eaton route, keeping in mind @gpez warning on the equipment hooked up.Thanks all for the feedback.

That's great. 62hz should be fine, I've seen no issues since mine was reduced to that level with my CyberPower UPSes. If you're sensitive to it you may notice motors (vent hood, microwave, garage door opener) sound slightly different...like 2hz different :)

Spec sheet on the APC Back-UPS NS 650M1 (page 2) says input frequency of 60hz +/- 3hz so 62hz shouldn't cause any issues.
 

zƬesla

Member
Apr 16, 2020
326
99
US-NH
Spec sheet on the APC Back-UPS NS 650M1 (page 2) says input frequency of 60hz +/- 3hz so 62hz shouldn't cause any issues.
That's the weird thing – even though PVWatts was showing 62.9, the BackUPS was still in backup mode. Not sure if the +/- 3 is not accurate or if something else was going on.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
7,701
8,483
Riverside Co. CA
Just heard from Tesla that they lowered the frequency to 62Hz. Hopefully that resolves it. If not, will likely go the Eaton route, keeping in mind @gpez warning on the equipment hooked up.Thanks all for the feedback.

Mine is set to 62hz and everything works as it should. Your APC battery backups should work now as well (referring to the original condition, which is off grid, battery almost full frequency).

I would test it to make sure they actually did it, with a kill a watt or similar. I bought a device similar to a kill a watt from amazon I can link if you dont have one.
 

MarqueePhillip

New Member
Mar 28, 2021
1
0
01844
I am having the same issue with my APC Smart-UPS Li-Ion "SCL500RM1UNC"
I have an Enphase setup with 2 PW's -going to call tesla see if they will lower to 62Hz. I will report back on what they say and if it worked.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
7,701
8,483
Riverside Co. CA
I am having the same issue with my APC Smart-UPS Li-Ion "SCL500RM1UNC"
I have an Enphase setup with 2 PW's -going to call tesla see if they will lower to 62Hz. I will report back on what they say and if it worked.

Hi, welcome to TMC. This is the "short form" version of this thread. the long form (29+ pages) is referenced in this OPs first post, but is here:


the TL ; DR version is, it is a known thing that the frequency (in the US) is set to 65hz, and it is also known that lots of things including most battery backup units dont like that. Sometimes tesla wants to roll a truck to verify the issue, and sometimes they dont.

Hopefully its not too difficult getting them to do what you need.
 

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