Used Model S - sweet spot for circa £50k

[SimonTaylor]

I'm sure this questions has been asked loads of times.

I've been very impressed by the new Model 3 and was planning on getting a performance version. However, I don't think the UK charging infrastructure is ready for track use (I do a fair amount of track days) and my understanding is that the boot aperture wouldn't allow you to throw a couple of bikes in the boot.

I've therefore been drawn to a used model S for roughly the same price. My son is car mad and insists we get the fastest accelerating version (can't argue with that ) and having a look on the Tesla site, this jumps out at me

New & Used Electric Cars | Tesla UK

I'm not a fan of the big wheels, but is there anything else to look out for if I went for something like this? Not that fussed about the lack of free supercharging ( we get cheap overnight electricity and don't undertake long journeys regularly). Comes with the 4 year and 50k warranty which (hopefully) gives peace of mind.

Any opinions/info much appreciated.

 

[tonyj01]

Hi Simon,

That model was the top model at that time. The 90 battery was only made available in autumn 2015.

I recommend you look at www.tesla-info.com run by an owner, he gets feeds of Teslas for sale on various sites, you can then filter on model, age, mileage, wheel size etc. Look for UK inventory.

[I personally have a car of that vintage but not selling, that age of car has ongoing supercharging included.]

I felt confident the car would be slow to depreciate, and so far it seems to be holding price really well.

Regards,

Tony

 

[SimonTaylor]

Hi Simon,

That model was the top model at that time. The 90 battery was only made available in autumn 2015.

I recommend you look at www.tesla-info.com run by an owner, he gets feeds of Teslas for sale on various sites, you can then filter on model, age, mileage, wheel size etc. Look for UK inventory.

[I personally have a car of that vintage but not selling, that age of car has ongoing supercharging included.]

I felt confident the car would be slow to depreciate, and so far it seems to be holding price really well.

Regards,

Tony

Hi Tony, thank you for the info. Will check out the website and see what comes up in the filter.

That's good to hear that they are holding their value well.

 

[SimonTaylor]

Hi Tony, thank you for the info. Will check out the website and see what comes up in the filter.

That's good to hear that they are holding their value well.

I'm quickly realising that there a lot to learn. Apparently there are 3 different versions of the P90D battery. The graph on here shows the power outputs of P85D insane to be only a tad less than P90D ludicrous with the v1 battery.

P90D - What battery versions should I avoid?

Slightly more complicated than purchasing a conventional used car

 

[zap fizzle]

Buying a used Tesla is increasingly problematic.

First of all were the problems with the 90 batteries - as you note there are several versions, the v1 on a P90D can't make full quoted power.

There is also a tendency for the 90s to suffer accelerated degradation. You don't want to pay for your P90D and then discover you've got a P75D - but unfortunately it's VERY difficult to get anyone at Tesla to give you information about a second hand car before paying a deposit.

More recently, the 85s have suffered from both slower supercharging (which affects all 85s), and the "batterygate" cut in capacity (for a small minority of cars). For an 85 which has been sat in a compound awaiting sale for months, you wouldn't even know if it was going to be a batterygate car until it had completed a couple of charge cycles - so doubly hard to understand what you're buying before you pay.

 

[SimonTaylor]

Buying a used Tesla is increasingly problematic.

First of all were the problems with the 90 batteries - as you note there are several versions, the v1 on a P90D can't make full quoted power.

There is also a tendency for the 90s to suffer accelerated degradation. You don't want to pay for your P90D and then discover you've got a P75D - but unfortunately it's VERY difficult to get anyone at Tesla to give you information about a second hand car before paying a deposit.

More recently, the 85s have suffered from both slower supercharging (which affects all 85s), and the "batterygate" cut in capacity (for a small minority of cars). For an 85 which has been sat in a compound awaiting sale for months, you wouldn't even know if it was going to be a batterygate car until it had completed a couple of charge cycles - so doubly hard to understand what you're buying before you pay.

Thanks Zap fizzle. I guess one way round this would be to purchase a car from someone like R Symons and take a test drive to check max range and power, but I guess then I'd be losing out on the Tesla 4 year warranty (but at least I would retain the supercharging).

 

[pgkevet]

Thanks Zap fizzle. I guess one way round this would be to purchase a car from someone like R Symons and take a test drive to check max range and power, but I guess then I'd be losing out on the Tesla 4 year warranty (but at least I would retain the supercharging).

I heard they'd finagled the supercharging by only passing it on to the second owner which would be the dealer in the case above, not ther subsequent customer

 

[MrBadger]

I didn't think dealers registered cars in their name when selling them. Thought they took the V5, then passed that on to new owner without any intermediate change of ownership. Adding an unnecessary owner would result in it being worth less which I am sure most dealers would not like.

 

[zap fizzle]

Thanks Zap fizzle. I guess one way round this would be to purchase a car from someone like R Symons and take a test drive to check max range and power, but I guess then I'd be losing out on the Tesla 4 year warranty (but at least I would retain the supercharging).

Personally - I have a Model S which has been quite unreliable, and while not financially a stretch to own, I would find the experience spoiled entirely by multiple £1000+ repair bills pa. Whereas, oddly, I find the car's rattling and unreliability comic, and unstressful. So, warranty is HIGHLY important to me. There are owners who have had cars for several years with no significant problems, however, so it is absolutely a lottery. I accept that it is irrational to pay £8k more for a car with warranty when the expected value of claims over its lifetime is £4k [numbers pulled from my arse, no supporting data] and the company backing the warranty is financially unstable, but that's where I am.

I would take the warranty over the free supercharging. The ONLY used Tesla I would buy, would be one with lots of "proper" warranty left - either manufacturer new, CPO, or *perhaps* the Allianz extended warranty product (but even this has exclusions which trouble me).

If my finance were to be at the "return car to finance company" half-way point tomorrow, the way I'd handle the purchase of another CPO car is this (it's a bit of a cut+paste job from a post in another place):

0 - Purchase Scan My Tesla, the CAN bus cable, an Android handset on which to run it, and the bluetooth dongle, if not already owned.

1 - Wait for a likely car to appear on the CPO list at a suitable price.

2 - Unless there is a choice of suitable cars [right now there are 37 CPO on offer, perhaps the highest ever number? but for long periods in the past there have been very few] immediately put down the deposit on the car online, preventing it being sold to someone else from under me.

This is from experience - my first CPO purchase failed because the car was sold out from under me while fannying around asking/answering questions about it.

I think it's unlikely that you'd be able to get the miles at 100%, raw available kWh at 100%, and battery revision/part number, disclosed to you via the offshore/automated CPO process, and these are much more important than a bit of seat wear or dents-away cosmetic paint fix the car might have.

3 - At delivery, be prepared to reject the car. Have transport home in place. Manage your emotions. Take a friend to help. Inspect on both cosmetic condition, battery part number/revision, *and CAN bus data* from Scan My Tesla. Tesla have fiddled with the reported mileage numbers on the displays to hide degradation of 90 packs, but not yet AFAIK with the "available kWh at 100%" number the BMS reports on CAN bus.

I would not reject for:

Interior carpet damage (not that hard to change)
Seat wear (leather repair people work miracles for not much money)
Scratches/small dents & dings on flat metalwork (it's going to get more as it's used, paint isn't that expensive)
Wheel damage (alloy refurbishment is cheap and I'm going to kerb them anyway)
Rust/rot/crud on tailgate struts, brake callipers, wheels, frunk latch, behind dash (they all have this)

I would consider rejecting for:

Corrosion of actual frunk bodywork (look at it from underneath while open, if it's bubbling around the latch you need to get in writing that they will fix, or reject it)

Evidence of damage to bodywork from wiper misalignment (they work loose and rub on the frunk, eroding it) unless they will commit in writing to fix it

Any promise whatsoever to fix a 'showstopper' issue which isn't given in writing or recorded on video

Any software-locked feature (AP/FSD) declared as present but missing - yes, they will fix, but once you've paid you'll be bottom of their list of priorities

Any issues with getting the car added to your account and available in the app - again, yes, they will fix eventually, but it's taking people several weeks so don't inflict it on yourself

Being a 75 or 90 with an early revision pack (part number on pack visible by lying down next to drivers door) - you'll have to DYOR about the characteristics of each revision

Having undue degradation (CAN bus / Scan My Tesla) - have a number in mind below which you'll reject BEFORE you go for delivery, DYOR

100% voltage being under 4.2V/400V (85 packs, batterygate - CAN bus - may not be apparent at delivery - but should be apparent from
degradation figure)

Having more than 50% of its lifetime charging done by DC (CAN bus again, batterygate, possible future restrictions). If you're planning to supercharge a lot - eg Uber/limo - then you probably want one that's hardly supercharged at all. If you'll never supercharge then you might relax a bit on this. Tesla have repeatedly, over the years, imposed restrictions on cars which have DC charged a lot and you don't want to take a risk on what and when the next restrictions are

Headliner staining or damage (difficult replacement, windscreen out)

MCU or IC yellow ring (they're refusing to fix this at the moment and the "in place" UV light "fix" appears to be temporary)

Any rattles suggestive of debris inside HVAC system (potentially expensive to resolve, not apparent until driven)

Capped charge rate on 90 pack from "excessive" DC charging (not apparent until supercharged) - I'm unsure which pack revisions suffer this but some 90 owners are now seeing 140kW+ rates, so being capped to 96 would be irritating

HVAC doesn't quickly blow properly cold on LO and hot on HI (yes they will fix but arguing with them 'it's not really cold' is tedious)

 

[Nky_84]

very useful info Zap_fizzle!

I think ive convinced myself to go for a 4 year warranty CPO facelift 2016 to mitigate against potential disasters but clicking the buy button is another thing entirely! Im hoping that this will also avoid v1, v2 batteries but first registration date isnt a given and tesla wont give out service of part details until you buy...

Wasn't aware of your phase 0, i will do some reading into this but do you have suggestions of what to purchase and associated costs?

 

[zap fizzle]

very useful info Zap_fizzle!

I think ive convinced myself to go for a 4 year warranty CPO facelift 2016 to mitigate against potential disasters but clicking the buy button is another thing entirely! Im hoping that this will also avoid v1, v2 batteries but first registration date isnt a given and tesla wont give out service of part details until you buy...

Wasn't aware of your phase 0, i will do some reading into this but do you have suggestions of what to purchase and associated costs?

It's a whole world of complication but IMV is worth the effort. Basically the hard part is the CAN bus cable, there are 2 types depending on age of car and they take several weeks to come by post from the USA. It connects under the cubby under the MCU, which is a pain to access if the car has a centre console and not really practical during/before handover. On a pre-facelift yacht floor car you're laughing, one sharp tug (matron) and the cubby is off & you can reach the connector.

Pretty much any non-antique Android handset will do, and for the Bluetooth adaptor you can use an elm327 (cheap, nasty, compatibility issues galore) or an obdlink (£70).

Yes the whole business of not being given details until you've paid the deposit is very silly. They pretend that the deposits are non-refundable but this is the most abject nonsense given both unfair contract terms & distance selling legislation. I guess if you repeatedly "paid" for cars and then refused/rejected/returned them, they would eventually refuse to deal with you, and I fully understand if you think the whole business is just too much faff.

 

[SimonTaylor]

Personally - I have a Model S which has been quite unreliable, and while not financially a stretch to own, I would find the experience spoiled entirely by multiple £1000+ repair bills pa. Whereas, oddly, I find the car's rattling and unreliability comic, and unstressful. So, warranty is HIGHLY important to me. There are owners who have had cars for several years with no significant problems, however, so it is absolutely a lottery. I accept that it is irrational to pay £8k more for a car with warranty when the expected value of claims over its lifetime is £4k [numbers pulled from my arse, no supporting data] and the company backing the warranty is financially unstable, but that's where I am.

I would take the warranty over the free supercharging. The ONLY used Tesla I would buy, would be one with lots of "proper" warranty left - either manufacturer new, CPO, or *perhaps* the Allianz extended warranty product (but even this has exclusions which trouble me).

If my finance were to be at the "return car to finance company" half-way point tomorrow, the way I'd handle the purchase of another CPO car is this (it's a bit of a cut+paste job from a post in another place):

0 - Purchase Scan My Tesla, the CAN bus cable, an Android handset on which to run it, and the bluetooth dongle, if not already owned.

1 - Wait for a likely car to appear on the CPO list at a suitable price.

2 - Unless there is a choice of suitable cars [right now there are 37 CPO on offer, perhaps the highest ever number? but for long periods in the past there have been very few] immediately put down the deposit on the car online, preventing it being sold to someone else from under me.

This is from experience - my first CPO purchase failed because the car was sold out from under me while fannying around asking/answering questions about it.

I think it's unlikely that you'd be able to get the miles at 100%, raw available kWh at 100%, and battery revision/part number, disclosed to you via the offshore/automated CPO process, and these are much more important than a bit of seat wear or dents-away cosmetic paint fix the car might have.

3 - At delivery, be prepared to reject the car. Have transport home in place. Manage your emotions. Take a friend to help. Inspect on both cosmetic condition, battery part number/revision, *and CAN bus data* from Scan My Tesla. Tesla have fiddled with the reported mileage numbers on the displays to hide degradation of 90 packs, but not yet AFAIK with the "available kWh at 100%" number the BMS reports on CAN bus.

I would not reject for:

Interior carpet damage (not that hard to change)
Seat wear (leather repair people work miracles for not much money)
Scratches/small dents & dings on flat metalwork (it's going to get more as it's used, paint isn't that expensive)
Wheel damage (alloy refurbishment is cheap and I'm going to kerb them anyway)
Rust/rot/crud on tailgate struts, brake callipers, wheels, frunk latch, behind dash (they all have this)

I would consider rejecting for:

Corrosion of actual frunk bodywork (look at it from underneath while open, if it's bubbling around the latch you need to get in writing that they will fix, or reject it)

Evidence of damage to bodywork from wiper misalignment (they work loose and rub on the frunk, eroding it) unless they will commit in writing to fix it

Any promise whatsoever to fix a 'showstopper' issue which isn't given in writing or recorded on video

Any software-locked feature (AP/FSD) declared as present but missing - yes, they will fix, but once you've paid you'll be bottom of their list of priorities

Any issues with getting the car added to your account and available in the app - again, yes, they will fix eventually, but it's taking people several weeks so don't inflict it on yourself

Being a 75 or 90 with an early revision pack (part number on pack visible by lying down next to drivers door) - you'll have to DYOR about the characteristics of each revision

Having undue degradation (CAN bus / Scan My Tesla) - have a number in mind below which you'll reject BEFORE you go for delivery, DYOR

100% voltage being under 4.2V/400V (85 packs, batterygate - CAN bus - may not be apparent at delivery - but should be apparent from
degradation figure)

Having more than 50% of its lifetime charging done by DC (CAN bus again, batterygate, possible future restrictions). If you're planning to supercharge a lot - eg Uber/limo - then you probably want one that's hardly supercharged at all. If you'll never supercharge then you might relax a bit on this. Tesla have repeatedly, over the years, imposed restrictions on cars which have DC charged a lot and you don't want to take a risk on what and when the next restrictions are

Headliner staining or damage (difficult replacement, windscreen out)

MCU or IC yellow ring (they're refusing to fix this at the moment and the "in place" UV light "fix" appears to be temporary)

Any rattles suggestive of debris inside HVAC system (potentially expensive to resolve, not apparent until driven)

Capped charge rate on 90 pack from "excessive" DC charging (not apparent until supercharged) - I'm unsure which pack revisions suffer this but some 90 owners are now seeing 140kW+ rates, so being capped to 96 would be irritating

HVAC doesn't quickly blow properly cold on LO and hot on HI (yes they will fix but arguing with them 'it's not really cold' is tedious)

zap fizzle - thank you very much for this. A big step up on the learning journey. Easy option is going to be getting a 3 but I'll keep my options open