V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3

[Zoomit]

That wouldn’t follow Tesla’s (Elon’s?) statement that V3 will be used along long distance routes.

If you follow some of the Canadian Supercharger threads (Moose Jaw, SK; Maple Creek, SK and Deep River, ON), you’ll find interesting new site construction methods that suggest the installation of V3 along the Trans Canada Highway.

Actually, it was meant to be consistent. The problem is that most "inter-city stations in busy regions" already have V2 stations so there are fewer empty spots on the map to fill.

I think the biggest open question is how quick the transition will be for new installations; in other words, how long will they be installing V2 in parallel with V3 before they stop new V2 installations. I suspect by the end of 2019 all new North American installations will be either V3 or Urban.

The other open question is how aggressively will they convert V2 stations to V3. A lot of factors play into this but I'd guess it will be slower than many people want or expect. Therefore, I think V3 stations are going to be relatively rare for at least the next 6, maybe 12 months. It sounds like the TCH will be an exception, then again it will probably take until next spring for that route to be complete.

 

[tivoboy]

I decided this AM to hit up the Fremont V3 supercharger and give it a try. I routed directly from PA and arrived with about 23 miles on the battery. I never got the message that the battery was being warmed up on route.

When I got there, it appeared that the C shift was ending, (~06:00 PST) so that would create quite a headache when leaving 15 min later.

Anyway, parked at what was labeled 2C. Checked mostly the cord size to be sure it was a V3 charged. Initially the car started pretty slowly to ramp, but then very quickly ramped up to ~965 mph charging. Once SOC was ~100 miles, it started to throttle down to 850, then 795. LOTS of noises coming from the car, whirring sounds and lots of loud clunking - which we are sort of used to but these appeared louder and more pronounced than I am used to hearing. I have the feeling that while loading energy at 230-250 kWh is possible and valuable in some situations, I think as we have seen with other battery electronics it's probably not the IDEAL way to load energy often. Time will tell but it'll be a while till we see too many of these V3 stations across the country enough to understand the long term effects of frequent use on battery degradation comparison.

Indeed the exit from the factory (where the SC is located) took the most time with all the off shift workers trying to get through the one light to head to the freeway.

roundtrip: home, Fremont V3 SC, home was about 1:15 overall, easily a fun early am adventure.

 

[Zoomit]

Thanks for making the example charts. I had done something similar a few years ago but never thought they were easily digestible for a layperson. I think they're interesting for EV geeks like us to compare charging performance but the data would be lost on my parents. I'm personally interested in presenting the data in a fashion to encourage comparing the charging performance of different cars, so buyers can make a more informed purchase decision. Most companies give charging performance in 0-80% in x minutes or xxx mi in yy minutes. That leaves a lot of details missing. For example, 75 mi in 5 minutes was a recent claim from Tesla during the V3 announcement. This capability has been proven but it is only available at very low battery levels. Ultimately, it's the inconsistency in the charge rate as the battery charges that leads to confusion. Each manufacturer designs their taper profiles differently. Add to that the difference in battery sizes and range and it's a quagmire.

Here's a chart that might be closer to the goal. I'm again using the Model 3 and e-tron, partially because they are so different. The bar graphs have some rounding errors, but hopefully it's easy to interpret the charging differences between these two cars. For example, it's possible to visually comprehend that the e-tron takes twice as long to charge from 0 to 300 km. Also, it's easy to do a little arithmetic and determine that it takes about 17 minutes to charge from 150 up to 375km in the Model 3. This kind of chart would be easier to make using SoC on the X-axis, but the "average Joe" only cares about time and range. The obvious deficiency of this chart is that it has 75km "bins". The time to charge above 300km is in the e-tron or 450km in the Model 3 is ignored, except for the charge rate line. I choose 75km-sized bins as I was looking for ~5 bins for most EVs. Three bins is too few and 10 is too many.

View attachment 425110

Here's a follow-up chart that might be insightful. It only has battery level on the bottom axis, not range, but it can be helpful to compare the speed of different kinds of fast charging, given a single battery configuration. In this case, it's a Model 3 LR battery.

The previous chart is based on these ideal profiles:

 

[Zoomit]

The Tesla Model 3 website and a recent video highlighting the new Las Vegas V3 Supercharging station both reference recharging 180 miles in 15 minutes. Assuming the 180 miles are EPA Combined range, this is 58% of a 3 LR AWD battery. This has been demonstrated (within rounding errors) by two example sessions in this thread.

@Dag started at 2% and gained 59% in 15 minutes or about 183 EPA miles for an LR AWD or P (post)
@MarcG started at 0% and gained 57% in 15 minutes or 177 EPA miles for an LR AWD or P (post)

I put this in terms of the LR AWD/P range because Tesla references the 310 mil range on the website. They make no claims about the LR RWD, which would be correspondingly further.

I included graphs below of the ideal charging profiles for the Model 3. Under ideal conditions, and starting at 0%, the 3 LR AWD/P could theoretically gain 191 miles in 15 minutes. Even when starting at 10%, again under ideal conditions, it could still gain 180 miles in 15 minutes and meet Tesla's published rate.

Note also that the MR and SR/+ profiles are still speculative. The current software limits them to 120kW and 100kW respectively.

Bottomline: Tesla's promised recharging time has been demonstrated and requires starting from under 10% SoC with near-ideal thermal conditions.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I was like "why does this purple line change to orange?"... ah ... SR/+ ... silly Tesla.

 

[Zoomit]

@Dag started at 2% and gained 59% in 15 minutes or about 183 EPA miles for an LR AWD or P (post)
@MarcG started at 0% and gained 57% in 15 minutes or 177 EPA miles for an LR AWD or P (post)

I just realized that was looking at only the first 15 minutes of charging, not the fastest 15 minutes. Here are the revised numbers.

@Dag: 3 to 63% in 15 min for 186 miles
@MarcG: 2 to 60% in 15 min for 180 miles
Ideal: 2 to 64% in 15 min for 198 miles

 

[Zoomit]

I was like "why does this purple line change to orange?"... ah ... SR/+ ... silly Tesla.

Yeah--this assumes the SR pack is all top-locked.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I just realized that was looking at only the first 15 minutes of charging, not the fastest 15 minutes.

@Dag: 3 to 63% in 15 min for 186 miles
@MarcG: 2 to 60% in 15 min for 180 miles
Ideal: 2 to 64% in 15 min for 198 miles

Fair points to take note of, but in terms of Tesla's marketing I'm going to guess they are more conservative and are talking about a max for a "first 15" and not a max for "fastest 15". They'd get raked over (more) coals for something like that.

"Sure, I can add X miles in Y minutes, but only *after* I charge and warm up first? Wah! False advertising!"

 

[Zoomit]

Fair points to take note of, but in terms of Tesla's marketing I'm going to guess they are more conservative and are talking about a max for a "first 15" and not a max for "fastest 15". They'd get raked over (more) coals for something like that.

"Sure, I can add X miles in Y minutes, but only *after* I charge and warm up first? Wah! False advertising!"

Both the first and fastest 15 min are close to 0% because the Superchargers are power-limited, in this case to 250kW. Most, if not all, other DC fast charging systems are amperage-limited. Using those stalls, the fastest times are a combination of maximum amperage and high voltage. Basically, the fastest charging comes in the middle of the pack, not down low.

So other EV manufacturers quote times in the middle of a charge session. For example, Chevy says "about 90 miles in 30 minutes" for the Bolt EV. This occurs under ideal conditions between 16 and 55% SoC. Another example is the e-tron, which is "54 miles of range with a 10 minute charge". That happens between 53 and 79%.

 

[bwilson4web]

Both the first and fastest 15 min are close to 0% because the Superchargers are power-limited, in this case to 250kW. Most, if not all, other DC fast charging systems are amperage-limited. Using those stalls, the fastest times are a combination of maximum amperage and high voltage. Basically, the fastest charging comes in the middle of the pack, not down low.

This does not match my measurements:

• 0-15 min -> 20-110 mi :: this larger than "Both the first and fastest 15 min are close to 0% because the Superchargers are power-limited . . ."

So other EV manufacturers quote times in the middle of a charge session. For example, Chevy says "about 90 miles in 30 minutes" for the Bolt EV. This occurs under ideal conditions between 16 and 55% SoC. Another example is the e-tron, which is "54 miles of range with a 10 minute charge". That happens between 53 and 79%.

• The 74 MPGe Etron charge rate is nearly flat but still runs 'miles per minute' behind the more efficient, 133 MPGe Tesla SR+M3.

There are other reasons for getting an Audi e-tron but charge rate in miles per minute is not one of them. You can get less but you can't pay more so for fun, translate French "étron" to English.

Bob Wilson

 

[darth_vad3r]

This does not match my measurements:

• 0-15 min -> 20-110 mi :: this larger than "Both the first and fastest 15 min are close to 0% because the Superchargers are power-limited

Your measurements / chart are for an SR+ and that doesn’t have the ability to go to 250kW at a V3 supercharger which is the topic being discussed ... thread title is:
V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3

 

[Zoomit]

This does not match my measurements:

• 0-15 min -> 20-110 mi :: this larger than "Both the first and fastest 15 min are close to 0% because the Superchargers are power-limited . . .

Obviously charging power is directly correlated with charging speed. Your graph shows the highest power between 3 and 13 minutes into the session. That session was done with now outdated software. After 2019.20.1 was released, the charging profiles allow a very quick ramp to max power. Redoing the same session would yield the fastest charging during the power plateau that starts at low SoC.

 

[bwilson4web]

After 2019.20.1 was released, the charging profiles allow a very quick ramp to max power. Redoing the same session would yield the fastest charging during the power plateau that starts at low SoC.

Thanks! I didn't see that in the release notes.

I'm waiting on the CHAdeMO version. A friend of mine has one he'll loan me:

• Video record another SuperCharger test
• Video record a CHAdeMO test

As for testing, I've noticed the Etron charging profile when combined with its high consumption leaves a lot of room for improvement.

Bob Wilson

 

[Zoomit]

MotorTrend published V3 testing results today. A dedicated thread on the article exists here: V3 Supercharging tested by Motor Trend...

The largest item to note is that they were able to charge to 27.5% SoC before the taper began. This is 2.5% higher than @MarcG saw previously. MotorTrend also experienced the same drop to ~170kW before rejoining the linear taper. I suspect this was due to the warmer ambient temperatures (~80F) not allowing the car to cool adequately.

I revised the "Ideal LR V3 profile" to account for the MT data. I added an inflection point at 45% and 173kW in addition to tweaking the line a little at high SoC. The 25 to 27.5% shift in the initial taper point only reduced the ideal charge time by...4 seconds.

I expect we'll need someone to start charging at 20% SoC at a V3 station to see a continuous taper, or wait for cooler weather. We also need to see someone turn HVAC on and off while charging at 250kW to see if it changes the power indication.

 

[darth_vad3r]

MotorTrend published V3 testing results today. A dedicated thread on the article exists here: V3 Supercharging tested by Motor Trend...

The largest item to note is that they were able to charge to 27.5% SoC before the taper began. This is 2.5% higher than @MarcG saw previously. MotorTrend also experienced the same drop to ~170kW before rejoining the linear taper. I suspect this was due to the warmer ambient temperatures (~80F) not allowing the car to cool adequately.

I revised the "Ideal LR V3 profile" to account for the MT data. I added an inflection point at 45% and 173kW in addition to tweaking the line a little at high SoC. The 25 to 27.5% shift in the initial taper point only reduced the ideal charge time by...4 seconds.

I expect we'll need someone to start charging at 20% SoC at a V3 station to see a continuous taper, or wait for cooler weather. We also need to see someone turn HVAC on and off while charging at 250kW to see if it changes the power indication.

Interesting the later taper, then the drop, before catching up ... it looks almost like the net effect is to match Dag's earlier taper.

I wonder if charts that are shifted from each other could also have something to do with degradation or other issues* where the displayed SoC % being offset from true underlying actual % SoC.

*Is there any factor here with LR AWD vs LR RWD and the different advertised ranges, etc, that could fall under "other issues"?

 

[darth_vad3r]

Anyone have L2 charge profile graphs?

Some discussion about whether they follow the supercharger taper (noticeable for 11, 6, 3 kW L2) starting around 96, 98, 99%, or whether L2 might use a friendlier less harmful profile since supercharging is a more aggressive rarer event and they want you to be done and leave

I personally have charged to 90% 50-100 and to 93 or 94% up to maybe a dozen times, and never seen a taper externally from the station’s chart, or internally in the car (SR+).

I found this example by @eprosenx but it lacks detailed y-axis labels, and the x-axis is time:
Data on how long it takes to charge to 100% from 90%

Appears to show taper from (11.5 kW) starting at what I’m guessing might be 94% and maybe 6kW around 98% doing rough visual/mental integration in my head

EDIT: Also found this: Home charging taper?
.. with one answer that said Model S tapers at 96% and an answer from @Zoomit saying ~11 kW taper at SC is reached at 98%.

 

[bwilson4web]

Bob Wilson

 

[Zoomit]

L2 might use a friendlier less harmful profile since supercharging is a more aggressive rarer event

I’m fairly certain the profiles are the same between DC and onboard AC charging. I use a 6kW EVSE at home and my LR charges all the way to 100% (indicated) at 6kW. The taper happens while at 100%. The same thing happens at a Supercharger. As noted upthread, it hits 100% at 7kW and the power continues to slowly reduce from there.

 

[BM3B]

I charged at Hawthorne on Monday from 33 miles range (11%). I hit 250 kW but stayed at that level for only 2-3 minutes. I was silly fooling around with the AC so I impacted the top end charging speed, e.g. when I turned on AC it dropped from 248 to 235 kW, then recovered a bit when I turned off AC before it continued tapering.

Summary:
5 min 68 miles added
10 min 120 miles
15 min 160 miles
20 min 192 miles
24 min 209 miles added, completed 80% SOC (243 miles)

Detail:
Timestamp SOC Range (miles) Charge speed (mph) Power (kW)
09/02/2019 2:20:46 PM 11 32.67 0 0
09/02/2019 2:21:16 PM 11 33.12 562.9 132
09/02/2019 2:22:20 PM 16 47.44 1061.6 248
09/02/2019 2:23:21 PM 21 63.55 986.7 231
09/02/2019 2:24:18 PM 25 76.97 789.3 184
09/02/2019 2:25:20 PM 29 89.06 751.3 176
09/02/2019 2:26:20 PM 33 101.59 750.5 175
09/02/2019 2:27:20 PM 37 113.22 752.7 176
09/02/2019 2:28:22 PM 41 125.31 748.9 175
09/02/2019 2:29:22 PM 45 136.94 578.9 135
09/02/2019 2:30:20 PM 48 145 459.8 107
09/02/2019 2:31:21 PM 50 153.05 494.7 116
09/02/2019 2:32:23 PM 53 161.55 490.8 115
09/02/2019 2:33:20 PM 56 168.72 499.1 117
09/02/2019 2:34:20 PM 59 177.22 501.2 117
09/02/2019 2:35:23 PM 61 185.27 469.4 110
09/02/2019 2:36:22 PM 64 193.33 445.8 104
09/02/2019 2:37:18 PM 66 200.04 419.6 98
09/02/2019 2:38:19 PM 68 206.75 395.6 92
09/02/2019 2:39:15 PM 70 213.02 374.9 88
09/02/2019 2:40:18 PM 72 218.84 350.6 82
09/02/2019 2:41:16 PM 74 225.1 323.3 76
09/02/2019 2:42:16 PM 76 230.03 300.2 70
09/02/2019 2:43:18 PM 77 234.95 277.3 65
09/02/2019 2:44:16 PM 79 239.42 257.6 60
09/02/2019 2:45:22 PM 80 242.56 0 0

 

[Steve Martin]

@Zoomit Have you seen any V3 charging sessions with improved charging speed with firmware 2019.32.11 for SR, SR+, or MR vehicles, or still capped at previous speeds?