Vampire Drain/Loss Tracking

[AlanSubie4Life]

It’s not just possible, it’s almost certainly the cause. I don’t understand people who let third party crap communicate with their car and then complain about vampire drain.

I have zero third party stuff, but reserve my right to complain about a 40W average load. The people who are losing 20 miles per day....yeah, make sure to turn off those apps before complaining to Tesla.

I mean, 40W drain is pretty awful, right?

I worked really hard to get the vampire drain in my house below 200W. So 40W is a big deal.

Depending on the marginal electricity rate and whether using TOU metering, 40W could cost as much as $165/yr in Southern California. That is an upper limit, but it is significant.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So, basically it did not have vampire drain, because 12V battery made it "invisible", took all load on itself. With Tesla constantly checking and supporting 12V battery it is a different story.

I don’t think this is right. AFAIK a 12V car battery has about 0.5 to 1kWh capacity. The RAV4 battery was draining that over a couple weeks according to the post above, which equates to a vampire drain of an less than 1/10 of the current “normal” Model 3 drain of ~1kWh per day.

And that may or may not have even been why the battery was draining. Obviously it doesn’t take much of an electrical issue to drain a 1kWh battery over the course of several weeks (even 1W would be enough to kill it). And lead acid batteries don’t recover from being drained - extended discharge permanently damages them. So the problem tends to compound. Battery tenders are basically a must for ICE cars not being driven frequently.

 

[BestHand]

I don’t think this is right. AFAIK a 12V car battery has about 0.5 to 1kWh capacity. The RAV4 battery was draining that over a couple weeks according to the post above, which equates to a vampire drain of an less than 1/10 of the current “normal” Model 3 drain of ~1kWh per day.

And that may or may not have even been why the battery was draining. Obviously it doesn’t take much of an electrical issue to drain a 1kWh battery over the course of several weeks (even 1W would be enough to kill it). And lead acid batteries don’t recover from being drained - extended discharge permanently damages them. So the problem tends to compound. Battery tenders are basically a must for ICE cars not being driven frequently.

I did not said that RAV4 draining was in a pair with Tesla, just that in that case you could not see any draining, except of native lite-on battery draining which is actually very small. So I do not know what is not right in what I said. I also concern about the drain, as it basically very comparable to the amount of my charge because I barely drive a car, mostly for local shopping and not every day. In my case it is a big percentage of what I spent for charging.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I did not said that RAV4 draining was in a pair with Tesla, just that in that case you could not see any draining, except of native lite-on battery draining which is actually very small. So I do not know what is not right in what I said.

Sorry, I just misinterpreted what you said.

basically it did not have vampire drain, because 12V battery made it "invisible", took all load on itself

I took this phrase above to mean that you thought the RAV4 didn’t have obvious vampire drain, because the 12V “took it.” It wasn’t clear that you realized any drain was an order of magnitude different between RAV4 and Model 3. But you did. Sorry!

 

[OverJohn]

It's so bad! In sleep mode it just consumes so much power, it's really remarkable. (Seems to align with the ~1kWh (closer to 1.2kWh) per day loss that I see.)

Interesting. I had been warned that TeslaFi could increase the vampire loss, so I was careful in setting it up to leave the car alone when it was detected as sleeping. I had several long cold overnights on the first half of my trip (but nothing like leaving it at the airport for days). The longest had a range in the morning of 220.62 (11:00) miles and the afternoon before (13:03) was 224.47 miles - A loss of 3.85 miles over 21:57 about 4 miles/day. The temperature was in the 30s. TeslaFi said the loss was 0.88 kWh.

My LEAF had to be on a battery tender if I left it (even plugged in!) for more than 2-3 days, or I'd come home to a dead 12v battery. There was no way I could leave it at the airport for anything more than a day trip...

 

[BestHand]

Sorry!

Nothing to be sorry about.
Talking about drain, I am pretty sure that it can be fixed to make it minimal and just need some time. I understand that different functions require different levels of energy and it would be the best if it was done in different computers (probably it is done that way already). For example supporting LTE and WiFi connections and some calculations requires energy as little as our phones require. But to run whole computer that can process complex algorithms as autopilot in a real time not necessary. And when car parked it is not necessary. Computer can easy take about 30W not even including display power in a picture. 30W load is about 3 miles a day. Not even talking about pumps we can hear often when car is sitting still in garage.

 

[BestHand]

My LEAF had to be on a battery tender if I left it (even plugged in!) for more than 2-3 days, or I'd come home to a dead 12v battery. There was no way I could leave it at the airport for anything more than a day trip...

Do you still have your LEAF?. It would be interesting to measure the current in a 12V battery circuit while it sleeps.

 

[OverJohn]

Do you still have your LEAF?. It would be interesting to measure the current in a 12V battery circuit while it sleeps.

Nope. Sorry. I traded it in on the P3D-

 

[C141medic]

It’s not just possible, it’s almost certainly the cause. I don’t understand people who let third party crap communicate with their car and then complain about vampire drain.

Don’t know how you perceived I was complaining. I was only asking for some information and unless you’ve used these apps or another third party app, your response is not relevant. Many people here in the forums use third party apps such as myself and don’t experience the same vampire drain I’m experiencing. The app developer for Stats is a Tesla owner and wrote the app so as to minimize vampire drain. Not sure about the other one. Do you have information if any of these apps may be contributing to vampire drain significantly?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Don’t know how you perceived I was complaining. I was only asking for some information and unless you’ve used these apps or another third party app, your response is not relevant. Many people here in the forums use third party apps such as myself and don’t experience the same vampire drain I’m experiencing. The app developer for Stats is a Tesla owner and wrote the app so as to minimize vampire drain. Not sure about the other one. Do you have information if any of these apps may be contributing to vampire drain significantly?

A more constructive response (which I guess is what @TexasEV was suggesting but came over a bit harshly) would be to turn off some of these third party apps temporarily, as a debug measure.

It seems that there is no one who has reported less than about 1kWh/day of vampire drain (3-4 miiles), so that appears to be the baseline for now which you should be trying to get to. Which you presumably would be a lot happier with - but is still pretty poor!

The monitoring apps I assume are helpful to see how many times the car wakes up, etc. As long as they don't contribute to the problem they're probably good!

I suspect the "standard" vampire drain comes in "bursts", which average out to 40W in benign environmental conditions, but I haven't verified this and haven't seen a detailed analysis for the Model 3. It's a little hard to verify using an electric meter monitor (at night for example) or an EVSE monitor, because from what I understand, even when plugged in and charging is complete, the Tesla draws from the battery for a bit until the charge level is sufficiently far from the target charge level...whereupon it charges again in a single burst. So I don't know how to measure the vampire drain vs. time directly (except with these monitoring apps, which I'm not familiar with - but looks like they provide a pretty good picture).

 

[C141medic]

A more constructive response (which I guess is what @TexasEV was suggesting but came over a bit harshly) would be to turn off some of these third party apps temporarily, as a debug measure.

It seems that there is no one who has reported less than about 1kWh/day of vampire drain (3-4 miiles), so that appears to be the baseline for now which you should be trying to get to. Which you presumably would be a lot happier with - but is still pretty poor!

The monitoring apps I assume are helpful to see how many times the car wakes up, etc. As long as they don't contribute to the problem they're probably good!

I suspect the "standard" vampire drain comes in "bursts", which average out to 40W in benign environmental conditions, but I haven't verified this and haven't seen a detailed analysis for the Model 3. It's a little hard to verify using an electric meter monitor (at night for example) or an EVSE monitor, because from what I understand, even when plugged in and charging is complete, the Tesla draws from the battery for a bit until the charge level is sufficiently far from the target charge level...whereupon it charges again in a single burst. So I don't know how to measure the vampire drain vs. time directly (except with these monitoring apps, which I'm not familiar with - but looks like they provide a pretty good picture).

I was actually planning on testing my drain by preventing them poling my car by changing my Tesla password. Unfortunately, no other way to pause the metrics on these specific apps I’m using. I’d sure like to hear from other’s who’ve used the same apps if they’ve had similar drain. I’ve already turned off my Bluetooth just in case my phone is preventing the car from going to sleep (however I don’t think that’s the case because the drain was the same when the car was not at my house.) I’m going to shut down access for the apps tonight and see what my drain is in the morning. It’s still around .88 miles per hour. I’d be ecstatic with only 3-4 miles of loss per day compared with what I’ve been getting.

 

[Incredulocious]

So, basically it did not have vampire drain, because 12V battery made it "invisible", took all load on itself. With Tesla constantly checking and supporting 12V battery it is a different story.

Yes, the 12V battery drain issue over several weeks is a definite problem, but Tesla vehicles have a much higher vampire drain than that – an amount that cannot be handled by a small 12V battery. (And of course, 12V batteries get drained by any modern vehicles with alarm systems, wireless key fobs, remote starts, etc. when left unused for months and not on a battery tender.)

So yes, the always-on electronics must run on something and on the RAV4 EV they apparently run on the 12V battery for weeks without ever tapping into the traction battery, but what is interesting to me is that they run so much more efficiently than Tesla has been able to do so far, even with a Tesla battery system. I'd like to see this change. I'd like to see Tesla get better at minimizing vampire drain across their ever growing fleet of cars.

It is/was never a concern to park my RAV4 EV at the airport for a week or two. No range loss and even the little 12V battery is still okay and the car is able to recognize my fob as I walk up and start up the system. Given the stories of people coming back from a trip and finding their Tesla drained at the airport (or worse, at a remote backpacking destination)... am I going to have to rely on using my RAV4 EV for long term parking?

Speaking of which, my girlfriend just got back from a week away and was bummed and surprised to see her Model 3 had lost about 50 miles. She says she knew not to check on it while away. And that's for the San Jose, CA area where the temp probably never got below the 40's at night (F). She's also accustomed to how her RAV4 EV behaved, losing nothing over a week. (She sold hers when she got her Model 3.)

 

[Incredulocious]

My LEAF had to be on a battery tender if I left it (even plugged in!) for more than 2-3 days, or I'd come home to a dead 12v battery. There was no way I could leave it at the airport for anything more than a day trip...

That's curious. I did not experience that with my LEAF or read about that on the LEAF forum at the time. I don't remember now how long it was safe to leave it (weeks?) but perhaps your 12V battery had deteriorated. That's an issue with many vehicles (including Teslas in the past as I've read on this forum) from the lead acid 12V battery getting drained too far too often. Many of us on the RAV4 EV forum switched over to AGM batteries for this reason as they can handle deeper drains.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I’m going to shut down access for the apps tonight and see what my drain is in the morning. It’s still around .88 miles per hour. I’d be ecstatic with only 3-4 miles of loss per day compared with what I’ve been getting.

Great, let us know how it goes! I have to say it doesn't sound promising, but who knows.

Also, it would be good to report test conditions at the same time - vehicle storage location (garage or outside?), ambient temperature, initial/final rated range, how long it was measured for, etc., if things seem better or if they are the same. That way we can keep calibrated on what might matter here.

 

[Incredulocious]

I don’t think this is right. AFAIK a 12V car battery has about 0.5 to 1kWh capacity. The RAV4 battery was draining that over a couple weeks according to the post above, which equates to a vampire drain of an less than 1/10 of the current “normal” Model 3 drain of ~1kWh per day.

To clarify, draining the 12V battery in the RAV4 takes more than just a couple of weeks. Last time it happened to me was this summer as I forgot to connect the battery tender and was away for two months. Luckily, I had put in an AGM battery so I was able to recover it. Not so lucky was that I had to pay an exorbitant fee to the Toyota dealer to get a "Check EV system" error cleared – the low voltage had apparently upset something:
Toyota Rav4 EV Forum • View topic - Check EV System warning message

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

To clarify, draining the 12V battery in the RAV4 takes more than just a couple of weeks.

Cool. I wasn’t sure of the exact timeframe, so I took a worst case number. Definitely seems like essentially zero vampire drain on the RAV4.

Mysterious! Maybe Teslas just like to be warm.

 

[TexasEV]

Don’t know how you perceived I was complaining. I was only asking for some information and unless you’ve used these apps or another third party app, your response is not relevant. Many people here in the forums use third party apps such as myself and don’t experience the same vampire drain I’m experiencing. The app developer for Stats is a Tesla owner and wrote the app so as to minimize vampire drain. Not sure about the other one. Do you have information if any of these apps may be contributing to vampire drain significantly?

If you go back and read the vampire drain threads over the past year you will find numerous reports of people disabling them and having their excessive vampire drain problem resolve.

 

[C141medic]

If you go back and read the vampire drain threads over the past year you will find numerous reports of people disabling them and having their excessive vampire drain problem resolve.

Looks like you were right.

At 1210am on 11/24/2018 changed Tesla password which effectively cut off third party app access to my car. At that point I had 156 miles of range indicated on my Tesla app and the interior temperature of the vehicle was 52 degrees Fahrenheit. The car is garaged in an attached garage. Temperature outside my house is 29 degrees Fahrenheit.

Turned Bluetooth back on at 11am 11/24

At 1100am 11/24 opened my Tesla app and my range was still at 156. Interior temperature of car 47 degrees Fahrenheit and outside temperature 45 degrees Fahrenheit. So, after 11 hours no loss of range. I had 3 apps (Stats for Tesla, T4U, and Explorer for Tesla) running. To test further, I’m going to activate each one separately to see which was the culprit for the high vampire drain.

At 1130am 11/24 connected Stats for Tesla app to my Tesla account. At the time I had 155 miles of range. Car remained garaged. Interior of car temp at 47 degrees Fahrenheit and outside 46 degrees Fahrenheit. I’ll post further details as I’m really interested to see which app is the culprit for the high drain.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Turned Bluetooth back on at 11am 11/24

At 1100am 11/24 opened my Tesla app and my range was still at 156. Interior temperature of car 47 degrees Fahrenheit and outside temperature 45 degrees Fahrenheit. So, after 11 hours no loss of range.

Great! Amazing that you have zero miles lost after 11 hours - that is definitely better than me - I routinely lose 1-2 miles overnight when garaged at 70 degrees after driving 10-20 miles in 70 degree weather.

Maybe the battery prefers 50 degrees? Perhaps at that temperature it turns all the vampires off (seems unlikely). My guess is that maybe you had a low number of idle events or something? Though some of the data posted above suggests that sleep mode is actually the main reason for ~1kWh per day loss.

I’m all for figuring which app is causing your problem...but also curious, if you avoid the bad app, whether you can consistently get your baseline loss below 1-2 miles per day. For that it might be necessary to disable them all again. You may not have the patience of course - presumably you just want low vampire drain and a couple apps. With any luck you’ll end up at 1 mile per day with apps. Though I have never heard of that low a level.

 

[BestHand]

Looks like you were right.

At 1210am on 11/24/2018 changed Tesla password which effectively cut off third party app access to my car. At that point I had 156 miles of range indicated on my Tesla app and the interior temperature of the vehicle was 52 degrees Fahrenheit. The car is garaged in an attached garage. Temperature outside my house is 29 degrees Fahrenheit.

Turned Bluetooth back on at 11am 11/24

At 1100am 11/24 opened my Tesla app and my range was still at 156. Interior temperature of car 47 degrees Fahrenheit and outside temperature 45 degrees Fahrenheit. So, after 11 hours no loss of range. I had 3 apps (Stats for Tesla, T4U, and Explorer for Tesla) running. To test further, I’m going to activate each one separately to see which was the culprit for the high vampire drain.

At 1130am 11/24 connected Stats for Tesla app to my Tesla account. At the time I had 155 miles of range. Car remained garaged. Interior of car temp at 47 degrees Fahrenheit and outside 46 degrees Fahrenheit. I’ll post further details as I’m really interested to see which app is the culprit for the high drain.

Well, to make that test correct try to leave car at least for 24 hours not disturbed at all if you have that possibility. The thing is that miles number we see on a screen is not absolutely accurate, just approximate and may change because on some factors we do not even know, just guess. Load on a battery also not constant at all. I would doubt that based on 12 hours we can predict 24 or more hours energy consuming.
My car pretty often stays in garage sleeping 2-3 days and it shows steady drain about 3 miles in 24 hours, but having only one app on my phone I cannot make that test.