Vampire Drain/Loss Tracking

[omgwtfbyobbq]

The contactor clunking observation is somewhat unrelated to the data above. I have no way of knowing what was happening with the contactors when I was away. The clunking I have observed is clearly due to proximity - it’s more sensitive to my presence in some way than it was before. But that had no effect on above experiment, since no one was around the car, so it’s unlikely that that has anything to do directly with the elevated drain rate.

I changed the Tesla password for this experiment; no apps were connecting. When I opened the Tesla app upon my return, it initally showed the old mileage, so it had not received any updates in my absence, so I doubt removing the app from my phone would have any effect (it does not appear to have polled the car). I wasn’t anywhere near my car so I guess we just have to rule out remote access - but this observation suggests probably none occurred.

So in short, I think it is highly unlikely any of the above would change the results.

It could be, but there's only one way to test it. You could also try taping over the cameras. Last but not least you could delete your wifi connection, although that might increase drain too.

Edit - Someone really needs to turn stuff on/off and record canbus activity over a day or few each time they change something, hopefully before the car upgrades to a new FW version.

Something like this should work.

Diagnostic Port and Data Access

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It could be, but there's only one way to test it. You could also try taping over the cameras. Last but not least you could delete your wifi connection, although that might increase drain too.

Yeah, I have hit enough dead ends here I am not that interested. Likely to create annoyances (like having to log in to Slacker again like I had to today). I’ll wait for Tesla to fix it ; it is very likely not a problem on my end.

Taping over the cameras is an interesting idea. Would need to do the proximity sensors too, though. Won’t bother.

Vampire drain is basically exactly what Tesla says it will be and no one knows exactly why other than it is “the electronics” (as Tesla says). So hopefully Tesla will remove their heads from their posterior at some point. Good enough for me - it is what Tesla says and there is no configuration that can be done to fix that or reduce the drain (and no one here has posted hard data indicating otherwise).

 

[Dre78]

Version 2018.50.5; LR AWD
Park in Midway parking garage (exposed), first floor, near middle of structure.

Thursday, 1/31, 1734 CT -- 86% SoC, 265.42 miles (427.15 km). Outside: 3°F (-16°C)
Friday, 2/1, Outside: 3°F-15°F (-16°C to -9°C)
Saturday, 2/2, Outside: 15°F-28°F (-9°C to -2°C)
Sunday, 2/3, 2330 CT -- 83% SoC, 250.42 miles (403.10 km). Outside: 28°F-50°F (-2°C to 10°C)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Datapoint: 14 days parked in Seattle, mostly in temperatures in the upper 20s - upper 40s:

Started 231 miles, finished 157 miles. There is a snowflake now though, and visually it looks like that might be 15 miles that will be gained back (judge for yourself). So let's say 235-157-15 = 59 miles in 14 days.

(It was at 204 miles after 6 days, with no snowflake, which is a 4.5mi/day rate)

So over two weeks, correcting for the snowflake, 4.2 miles a day. Car was checked twice from the app. No 3rd party apps running. No phone keys in the vicinity.

Not correcting for snowflake, it's 5.3 miles/day (but that isn't a valid way to look at it as that energy will become available as the pack warms).

Nothing new here, this is what people should expect (4 miles/day); it's pretty much in line with Tesla's guidance (slightly higher than the guidance, as one would expect, since that's the way the world works). At this point, I'm pretty sure this is what everyone gets...if the temp changes a lot you might see different results that aren't valid, but all vehicles basically seem to behave the same way.

Budget for 1.2kWh/day for your energy use calculations (accounting for charging inefficiency - ~1kWh/day is probably reasonable if you're using Superchargers).

 

[CCIE]

I really wish there was an option we could select to tell the car not to close the HV contractors for any reason and to shutdown all systems if the 12V battery starts to get low. I hate wasting all this energy if I know I won’t be using the car for a week.

I’ve considered adding a remote control switch for the 12V battery and disabling it when I won’t be using the car for a while.

 

[rrolsbe]

Yeah, I have hit enough dead ends here I am not that interested. Likely to create annoyances (like having to log in to Slacker again like I had to today). I’ll wait for Tesla to fix it ; it is very likely not a problem on my end.

Taping over the cameras is an interesting idea. Would need to do the proximity sensors too, though. Won’t bother.

Vampire drain is basically exactly what Tesla says it will be and no one knows exactly why other than it is “the electronics” (as Tesla says). So hopefully Tesla will remove their heads from their posterior at some point. Good enough for me - it is what Tesla says and there is no configuration that can be done to fix that or reduce the drain (and no one here has posted hard data indicating otherwise).

I have verified that the current draw during sleep is VERY low between 0.3 and 0.5 amps using a NOCO G7200 in supply mode. I will be borrowing a friends bluetooth Iogging meter for the next test. I performed this experiment with remote access and WIFI disabled. The charger is supplying the power needed by the car while it is sleeping. The charger is smart and it backs off when the car wakes up. The car should not need to wake up to top off the 12V battery because it is maintained at 13.64V; however, it wakes up and I hear the cooling pump(s) run for up to 4-5 hours. The Model S evidently does not wake up for months with a battery tender attached so something is fundamentally different with the Model 3. When the M3 wakes up the DC-to-DC converter is supplying almost 15V at the 12V AGM battery terminals. The voltage at the 12V battery terminals when the car completes the top off (with the NOCO NOT connected) is 13.62V; likewise, the M3 does not top off the 12V battery until the post voltage is below 12.6V. There may be a very valid reason for this behavior but I would like to know why this is happening because I have seen Phantom drain of up to 2KW per day while parked for an extended period at temps between 50-70F. Maybe the M3 pumps coolant though the traction battery for hours to equalize the temp of the internal cells but doing so during low temps would tend to cool the traction battery. Maybe when Jack Rickard and others complete their Model 3 CAN bus monitors curios owners can figure out what is going on behind the scenes?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks for this information.

current draw during sleep is VERY low between 0.3 and 0.5 amps using a NOCO G7200 in supply mod

That isn’t *that* low and will destroy the AGM 12V over time, but I would definitely take ~5W over the more typical 40W average draw! Good data though; it somewhat confirms what we thought we knew...the average of 40W is composed of a baseline 4-6W consumption with occasional ~100W-200W (or more?) bursts (presumably due to being in idle mode) for about 2-4 hours per day on average.

It sounds like you are saying the contactors are closed during the wake up so at least there is some good news here - “only” 5W draw from the 12V...so it perhaps isn’t wearing it out too fast (draws the equivalent of full 12V (45Ah) battery capacity every 4 days or so)...not sure how many shallow discharges are “allowed”, but anyway the lower the discharge rate the longer it will take to wear out. (Looks like maybe 5000 10% cycles of a 0.5kWh battery are allowed at a 5-hour cycle rate (~10W...), which wouldn’t be too far off this scenario... 5000 times 10% of 0.5kWh is 250kWh, which at 5W is 2000 days...so seems like these super high-end batteries will last about 5-6 years...)

I have seen Phantom drain of up to 2KW per day while parked for an extended period at temps between 50-70F. Maybe the M3 pumps coolant though the traction battery for hours to equalize the temp of the internal cells but doing so during low temps would tend to cool the traction battery.

Yeah, seems pretty unnecessary. My guess is there is actually no good reason for this behavior. They probably just don’t (currently) have an engineering requirement to keep vampire drain low, so they just have a fixed routine that runs unintelligently and drains arbitrarily. It would be in keeping with Tesla’s general execution ability.

 

[StealthP3D]

Yeah, seems pretty unnecessary. My guess is there is actually no good reason for this behavior. They probably just don’t (currently) have an engineering requirement to keep vampire drain low, so they just have a fixed routine that runs unintelligently and drains arbitrarily. It would be in keeping with Tesla’s general execution ability.

That's ridiculous. It's like your entire purpose of posting here is to try to denegrate Tesla.

Tesla couldn't become the #1 seller of luxury passenger cars if it had terrible execution ability. And the two Model 3's sitting in my carport are amazing examples of their ability to execute on a very high level. You don't build cars like this when you have poor ability to execute.

The truth of the matter is that you have no idea what Tesla is using the electricity for. If your execution skills were half of what Tesla's are, you would know what the electricity was being used for by now. But you admit you have to guess. When it comes to "guessing", I'll give you a "2" for execution ability.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

That's ridiculous. It's like your entire purpose of posting here is to try to denegrate Tesla.

Tesla couldn't become the #1 seller of luxury passenger cars if it had terrible execution ability. And the two Model 3's sitting in my carport are amazing examples of their ability to execute on a very high level. You don't build cars like this when you have poor ability to execute.

Sigh. I do try to suppress my fanboy urges I suppose.

Not my intention to denigrate. I have a Tesla and I love it (documented elsewhere here). The vampire/phantom drain imposes very real constraints (and stress for me) on how I use the vehicle in remote areas far from power sources, when I choose to do so in the near future. You and I have discussed other reasons too.

I know how engineering can work, and I am GUESSING that there is no strict spec on the phantom/vampire drain currently.

As far as execution, Tesla has shown that they can execute on the big picture quite well. But there are numerous examples (5k, panel alignment, paint - to name a few) which show that that last few % of “executing” are where they struggle. And understandably so! As Elon says, it was really touch and go for a while! You have to prioritize (triage).

But just because Tesla’s priority was to stay in business and not worry about vampire drain doesn’t mean they have to maintain the same set of priorities indefinitely.

Main objective here is to quantify and understand. This thread contains a lot of useful data at this point (all certainly already known to Tesla). But they may not yet have prioritized fixing this problem. I should tweet at Elon (seems a bit OCD to me and with my following it would be like shouting into the void), and also contact the EPA (just out of principle) with the findings so far.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Tesla couldn't become the #1 seller of luxury passenger cars

Just for correctness, this is not true. Needs appropriate modifiers to avoid appearance of being biased. (US market, specific model, etc. - you can look up the numbers, I won’t bother, as the numbers of luxury passenger vehicles shipped worldwide are very high relative to Model 3 shipments!)

Not consequential to the discussion, really, though.

 

[rrolsbe]

The NOCO charger could supply the power required while the car is sleeping for minimal cost. There could be many other activities going on during the 4-5 hour awake period (????) while the contactors are closed, pump(s) running, DC-to-DC converter active (and others systems?) that are not associated specifically with topping off the 12V battery. But what ever events might be active during this awake period ALL are pulling power from the HV traction battery (not from shore power) requiring it to eventually require a recharge. So not only is the 12V battery seeing partial discharge/charge cycles but the HV traction battery is seeing them as well. So even if we assumed the car only woke up with the sole purpose of topping off the 12V battery, many systems are involved that require eventual wall power all with associated inefficiencies (partial list - keeping contactors closed, running pump(s), DC-to-DC converter, onboard charger, using the traction motor during charging if ambient temp is lower than about 47F to heat the battery to allow charging, etc..). Working in the engineering field, I am aware of the many decisions associated with developing a produce and making a profit from it sales; likewise, it is always easy to second guess a design after its completion. The purpose of my posts regarding this topic is not to bash Tesla or it engineers in any way but to simply understand what is happening. I am the type of person who likes to see things improved where feasible and I feel sure Tesla share this consensus. Since the Model S seems to work well using this same NOCO G7200 battery tender during long storage/parked periods, I would tend to believe the Model 3 probably eventually will also.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

partial discharge/charge cycles but the HV traction battery is seeing them as well.

Agreed. I’ve driven my car for 2700 miles, and the car has driven another 500 miles sitting in my garage. Probably battery age is a bigger factor but still would be nice to eliminate some of these miles on the battery.

using the traction motor during charging if ambient temp is lower than about 47F to heat the battery to allow charging, etc..)

I don’t classify this sort of loss (whenever it occurs) as a vampire drain though...it’s just a necessary inefficiency of current battery technology. Though I guess it would add to vampire drain significantly if it has to warm the battery in order to top it up from previous drain cycles! Fortunately that is not a problem I will have very often, if ever.


Overall I am still optimistic that they will improve this. The sooner the better.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

(Disregard the temperatures in the pictures...I have no idea how the FLIR comes up with them. It was 54 degrees outside.)

Tesla is so smart to:

1) Keep the front camera heated when it is 54 degrees outside. Could freeze at any time, and there is no way to know how quickly the temperature could drop. Really brilliant thinking. Maybe they don't want to check the temperature since that might take too much energy? Or maybe they forgot a relay and just leave this heating element permanently connected to the 12V battery?

2) Keep the cameras warm. Even when not in Sentry mode. Very important to keep track of the surroundings.

3) Keep the motion sensors on. Like a puppy, the Model 3 is always pining for its owner and is expecting their return any moment.


I have noticed that these are not always on. The exact pattern I am too lazy to figure out. Really need to sneak up on my car when it is in sleep mode and see what I can see. However, it may be difficult to sneak up on it.

The good news here is that Tesla does not appear to even be trying to reduce vampire drain! So perhaps the future will hold much good news for those of us who care about these things.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

(Disregard the temperatures in the pictures...I have no idea how the FLIR comes up with them. It was 54 degrees outside.)

Tesla is so smart to:

1) Keep the front camera heated when it is 54 degrees outside. Could freeze at any time, and there is no way to know how quickly the temperature could drop. Really brilliant thinking. Maybe they don't want to check the temperature since that might take too much energy? Or maybe they forgot a relay and just leave this heating element permanently connected to the 12V battery?

2) Keep the cameras warm. Even when not in Sentry mode. Very important to keep track of the surroundings.

3) Keep the motion sensors on. Like a puppy, the Model 3 is always pining for its owner and is expecting their return any moment.


I have noticed that these are not always on. The exact pattern I am too lazy to figure out. Really need to sneak up on my car when it is in sleep mode and see what I can see. However, it may be difficult to sneak up on it.

The good news here is that Tesla does not appear to even be trying to reduce vampire drain! So perhaps the future will hold much good news for those of us who care about these things.

View attachment 380329 View attachment 380330 View attachment 380331

Following up on this: I snuck up on my car, and it appears all of these things are turned off when the car is asleep, as would be expected since it sounds like in that mode (based on battery tender results) it uses 5W or so, so it could not be running this stuff. (And of course opens fine in response to a door handle opening, so that pegs the maximum power requirement for that feature at less than 5W (of course!).)

Why on earth it has to run this other stuff in idle mode when it is recharging the 12V, I do not know. I guess they aren’t trying.

But anyway, the good news is that 5W all day should be no problem, once they get around to fixing it, with no loss of functionality, which would be 0.5mi per day.

 

[baton]

Was on vacation from Saturday to Saturday left the car unplugged in my garage. The temperature in the garage was 42 degrees Fahrenheit. Left the car with 89% battery charged and when we got home it was 78%. So in 7 days, battery lost 11% charge, that’s about 1.5% discharge per day (30 miles lost) which is 0.5% more than what Tesla manual calls for. I checked on the car only two times. If I didn’t own a leaf and an e-golf prior probably would not have minded as much, but loosing 30 miles in a garage setting in just 7 days it’s a big disappointment to me, and it is a significant power loss. I’m pretty sure once this issue becomes more prevalent it will effect Tesla sales.

 

[duanra]

i was told that the 1% works with temp around 20c...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Was on vacation from Saturday to Saturday left the car unplugged in my garage. The temperature in the garage was 42 degrees Fahrenheit. Left the car with 89% battery charged and when we got home it was 78%. So in 7 days, battery lost 11% charge, that’s about 1.5% discharge per day (30 miles lost) which is 0.5% more than what Tesla manual calls for. I checked on the car only two times. If I didn’t own a leaf and an e-golf prior probably would not have minded as much, but loosing 30 miles in a garage setting in just 7 days it’s a big disappointment to me, and it is a significant power loss. I’m pretty sure once this issue becomes more prevalent it will effect Tesla sales.

If I recall correctly you have the MR? Anyway... For the MR there is no reason to think the energy drain will be lower since the drain magnitude has nothing to do with the HV battery. So the fixed loss of 1% (which can be higher even on the LR) will be higher than that on the MR in % terms. Since it is the energy loss (kWh) which is constant, not the percentage...

I see about 1.2% per day on the LR battery so 1.4-1.5% per day for the MR seems about right.

They probably just forgot to update the manual to say 1.2% per day for the MR! For the SR if they make it, it will be 1.5% (real world 1.8%). Maybe that is why they are waiting?

 

[Matt L]

Was on vacation from Saturday to Saturday left the car unplugged in my garage. The temperature in the garage was 42 degrees Fahrenheit. Left the car with 89% battery charged and when we got home it was 78%. So in 7 days, battery lost 11% charge, that’s about 1.5% discharge per day (30 miles lost) which is 0.5% more than what Tesla manual calls for. I checked on the car only two times. If I didn’t own a leaf and an e-golf prior probably would not have minded as much, but loosing 30 miles in a garage setting in just 7 days it’s a big disappointment to me, and it is a significant power loss. I’m pretty sure once this issue becomes more prevalent it will effect Tesla sales.

.5% = “big disappointment”?

You must have a generally wonderful life. I genuinely hope this is the worst challenge you are forced to face.

 

[Daniel in SD]

.5% = “big disappointment”?

You must have a generally wonderful life. I genuinely hope this is the worst challenge you are forced to face.

No, 378,000Wh a year of energy used when the car isn't running is a big disappointment
The disappointment is that Tesla is way behind GM in terms of true wall-to-wheel efficiency. Only through a loophole in the EPA test are they able to get competitive numbers.

 

[Matt L]

No, 378,000Wh a year of energy used when the car isn't running is a big disappointment
The disappointment is that Tesla is way behind GM in terms of true wall-to-wheel efficiency. Only through a loophole in the EPA test are they able to get competitive numbers.

Sigh...we are still on this?

If you don’t like features that require this, it’s best to just go with GM...they go hand in hand