Watching people making poor car choices

[N5329K]

Also the boot is very small (er... the trump in American)

You mean the junk in our trunk?
Robin

 

[Knightshade]

I hope you realize that EVs are only "locally" cleaner.

That's demonstrably untrue though.

I
In the US, only 17% if electricity generation sources are renewables, the other 83% are fossil fuels and nuclear:
What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Yes- and nuclear is much cleaner than ICE if handled properly.

So is natural gas, which is the single largest fossil fuel source of power in the US.

Even for oil electric production it's generally far cleaner/more efficient to produce in one large plant than thousands of tiny less efficient ICEs.

I
It's ironic that your and my EVs are 83% "essentially smoke stacks sticking out the back spewing out pollution". The stack is simply a bit relocated from your car's tail end, that's about it !

That would be ironic if it wasn't factually and demonstrably untrue.

 

[afadeev]

Yes- and nuclear is much cleaner than ICE if handled properly.

So is natural gas, which is the single largest fossil fuel source of power in the US.

Yep, nuclear is great, has no downsides what-so-ever, nothing ever goes wrong with it, at least not where you reside.
Gas is oh-so-renewable, and most importantly, is burned far far away from where you live, so gas power plants are someone else's problem.
As are all the other smoke belching fossil fuels power plants - out of sight, out of mind!

Hooray to us - EVs are 100% clean, and are THE simple and complete solution to world's pollution problem.

Even for oil electric production it's generally far cleaner/more efficient to produce in one large plant than thousands of tiny less efficient ICEs.

Booo on you - are you letting facts get in the way of you fantasy that EVs are 100% clean??
Say it ain't so!
Also thank god there are no electricity transmission losses in power lines. Resistance is fake news!

It's ironic that your and my EVs are 83% "essentially smoke stacks sticking out the back spewing out pollution". The stack is simply a bit relocated from your car's tail end, that's about it !

That would be ironic if it wasn't factually and demonstrably untrue.

.

You win!

 

[Knightshade]

Yep, nuclear is great, has no downsides what-so-ever, nothing ever goes wrong with it, at least not where you reside.

Well, first- you're making up nonsense claims literally nobody ever made- also moving the goalposts from 'clean' to 'perfect'

So that's your first doesn't-understand-logic flag thrown on your argument.

Gas is oh-so-renewable, and most importantly, is burned far far away from where you live, so gas power plants are someone else's problem.

Same issue here. You've moved from "clean/dirty" to "renewable" for some reason... all while ignoring the fact burning NG for power at a plant is much cleaner than burning gasoline in lots of individual ICE engines is.

Doing so produces measurably less emissions by a large amount.

As are all the other smoke belching fossil fuels power plants - out of sight, out of mind!

I agree someone here is out of their mind

Booo on you - are you letting facts get in the way

You mean all the specific facts I listed proving you're wrong? Those facts? The ones you completely ignored while moving your goalposts to a whole other ball-field?

of you fantasy that EVs are 100% clean??

Once again making a claim literally nobody made just to knock it down.

That logical fallacy is called a strawman, FYI.

You win!

It's a good thing he's dead, or he'd have a lot of such slapping to do of the "arguments' you've presented



Here's more facts you'll either ignore, misunderstand, or misquote-


Electric Car Mythbusting: EVs Are Cleaner, Even With a "Long Tailpipe" of Emissions - Koch Vs Clean

Even though a significant portion of electricity is still generated by fossil fuels, which emit greenhouse gases and other air pollution, EVs charging off of the electric grid throughout the country are still cleaner and emit less pollution.

First, the percentage of fossil-born electricity transmitting over the grid has been falling steadily for decades and the percent of low carbon, renewable resources is increasing. Gasoline-powered cars, of course, still and always will run entirely off of fossil fuels, and will always have unmitigated tailpipe emissions.

This alone makes “The Long Tailpipe” myth a fallacy of logic known as false equivalence, where two things may on the surface seem to be the same or equal, but a closer examination makes clear that they are not.

The bottom line is that EVs emit fewer greenhouse gases than their gas-powered equivalents, regardless of where and how they are charged. This doesn’t even get into the improvements in local air quality, which are obviously enormous, given that EVs don’t even have tailpipes.





So again your original claims are demonstrably, factually, untrue.

 

[afadeev]

Well, first- you're making up nonsense claims literally nobody ever made- also moving the goalposts from 'clean' to 'perfect'

FALSE.

I stated in post #100: "I hope you realize that EVs are only "locally" cleaner. [...]It's ironic that your and my EVs are 83% "essentially smoke stacks sticking out the back spewing out pollution". The stack is simply a bit relocated from your car's tail end"

You disagreed that my statement was "demonstrably untrue though", the proceeded to come up with excuses why gas, nuclear and other fossil fuel burning power plants and their inevitable pollution are "better".

Is it too much to ask that you remain logically consistent?
I know that the answer is "yes", but therein lies the paradox.
These over-simplistic, self-congratulating arguments like yours is why folks find it too easy to dismiss EV owners as a bunch of tree-hugging wackos who can't think straight.

EVs are not perfect, and they do move pollution from your door-step to someone-else's.
May be only 83% of it, maybe more, maybe less. But the pollution is still there.

You need to look at the complete energy generation and consumption ecosystem, not just what happens within the confines of your vehicle!


a

 

[Knightshade]

FALSE.

yes, that's an excellent description of the claims in your posts so far!

I stated in post #100: "I hope you realize that EVs are only "locally" cleaner. [...]It's ironic that your and my EVs are 83% "essentially smoke stacks sticking out the back spewing out pollution". The stack is simply a bit relocated from your car's tail end"

You disagreed that my statement was "demonstrably untrue though",

Right. Because it is demonstrably untrue. I even provided a source for it being untrue in my last post.

You then moved the goalposts on things like nuclear from "cleaner" to "never has ANY drawback" which is a claim nobody made

A strawman argument.

A logical fallacy.

the proceeded to come up with excuses why gas, nuclear and other fossil fuel burning power plants and their inevitable pollution are "better".

Better than an ICE vehicle? Yes. Because again they factually and demonstrably are.

Which is why EVs are cleaner than ICE cars, in general, not just locally.

BTW protip- gas is a fossil fuel. Nuclear isn't.

Is it too much to ask that you remain logically consistent?

..are you talking to yourself or something? You're the only one who keeps changing their arguments as they keep getting debunked by actual facts.

EVs are not perfect

And again literally nobody claimed they were. Another strawman.

, and they do move pollution from your door-step to someone-else's

no, they actually produce less total pollution compared to ICE vehicles.

Both because at least SOME of their power comes from NON FF sources, and because even most of the FF sources are MUCH CLEANER than ICE are.


Facts! TRY THEM SOMETIME!

.
May be only 83% of it, maybe more, maybe less. But the pollution is still there.

You need to look at the complete energy generation and consumption system to improve the entire pollution ecosystem,

And when you do that, EVs measurably reduce total pollution

In direct contradiction of your claims they simply move it around.


Because you are, again, demonstrably and factually wrong in virtiually every claim you've posted here.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[MXWing]

I know next to nothing in this field but being not a complete moron I can visualize the following.

Exhibit A:
ICE Pollution Chain
Dig up oil -> refine oil -> truck oil -> ADDITIONAL COMBUSTION BYPRODUCT across hundreds of millions of endpoints.

Exhibit B:
EV Pollution Chain (for some cases)
Dig up coal -> power generation via combustion power plant -> No endpoint pollution.

Exhibit C:
Personal EV Pollution Chain for myself and many others.
Solar Partial/Full (Clean, renewable) -> Grid -> To my cars.

Someone also tell me how the hell I can move my clean energy production to my friend's ICE car that stopped by?!?

Since I produced clean energy, the endpoint will always be clean right?!?!

--

Can some genius explain to me how B and C are no better than A? (Jackie Chan mind blown)

It's taking all my willpower to not add some extra opinions which would guarantee a movement to snippiness.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

The sense of superiority many people have on this forum is truly disappointing. That’s part of the reason why I never owned a Harley during my years of riding; I never wanted to be associated with a group of people who thought themselves better than others because of what they chose to ride. Apparently I now find myself in a similar group.

People make their own choices for their own reasons, and we don’t always agree with them. That doesn’t make their choice better or worse than ours, just different.

This is a bit of a self-fulfilling issue though - you mentioned Harleys, well if you go to the Honda forums, they all think Honda bikes rule... Triumph fans think the same about Triumphs.

Tesla owners are slightly more unbearable than some other car owners, because of the Musk love, but pretty much any group of people dedicating time and effort to talk about their car, bike, socks or whatever, are going to be full of people who need to constantly convince themselves they made the right purchasing decision.

If you really want to see a sense of superiority, take a peek in the Porsche, BMW or Mercedes forums - even Audi owners. Sorry they are 4 Germans brands, but they all do seem to bring the worst out in people.

 

[MXWing]

are going to be full of people who need to constantly convince themselves they made the right purchasing decision.

The fact that I can either toast you at the light or mean mug you while throwing you a middle finger from BOTH hands makes my car objective better than yours.

 

[MXWing]

Hooray to us - EVs are 100% clean, and are THE simple and complete solution to world's pollution problem.

I'm 100% EV *and* 100% solar generation for 3 cars and no one believes it is the simple and complete solution to the world's pollution problem.

WTF strawman is this you are arguing?

Booo on you - are you letting facts get in the way of you fantasy that EVs are 100% clean??

I think sometimes I am the hubristic person on TMC. I know for certain now, I am not.

Whom exactly has this fantasy that EVs are 100% clean?

You need to look at the complete energy generation and consumption ecosystem, not just what happens within the confines of your vehicle!

Thank you Captain Obvious. ALL OF US know there are many types of energy. How they are produced, how they are transported, and what their byproducts/negative externalities are.

DO YOU know that WE KNOW what happens outside of the confines of our vehicles?

 

[DWdrum]

In the end, ya buy a car cause you like it....who cares how many people have them right? We're still pretty excited to get ours.

 

[EdisonDrvr]

Yep, nuclear is great, has no downsides what-so-ever, nothing ever goes wrong with it, at least not where you reside.
Gas is oh-so-renewable, and most importantly, is burned far far away from where you live, so gas power plants are someone else's problem.
As are all the other smoke belching fossil fuels power plants - out of sight, out of mind!

Hooray to us - EVs are 100% clean, and are THE simple and complete solution to world's pollution problem.



Booo on you - are you letting facts get in the way of you fantasy that EVs are 100% clean??
Say it ain't so!
Also thank god there are no electricity transmission losses in power lines. Resistance is fake news!




You win!

You’re all wet.....

 

[focher]

You need to look at the complete energy generation and consumption ecosystem, not just what happens within the confines of your vehicle!

Actually, you don't. Two things have been studied that are demonstrably true:

1. Even the best ICE converts gasoline to energy (tops out at about 35-40% in the most efficient engines) than the worst power plant (which usually is in the 60-70% range), even incorporating energy losses due to transmission. That translates to an EV contributing less CO2 when using coal to generate the electricity at the plant.

2. Electricity generation absolutely differs by location. You can use this simple form to see how your car compares based on where you actually live. I'll save you time, though, by letting you know that there's no scenario where a BEV isn't better than an ICE. How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?

 

[afadeev]

Tesla owners are slightly more unbearable than some other car owners, because of the Musk love, but pretty much any group of people dedicating time and effort to talk about their car, bike, socks or whatever, are going to be full of people who need to constantly convince themselves they made the right purchasing decision.

True 'dat.
Though, I never got the memo on the need to join Musk cult of personality.

TM3 is my third EV, but the only one that comes with a group of owners who have nothing positive to say about the EV movement overall. Or have the audacity to poke a little fun at themselves.

If you really want to see a sense of superiority, take a peek in the Porsche, BMW or Mercedes forums - even Audi owners. Sorry they are 4 Germans brands, but they all do seem to bring the worst out in people.

As a card carrying member of 3 out of the above 4 German car clubs, I can vouch that none of them exhibit the intensity of "us" vs. "them" mentality among Teslarati.
Here, "them" is everyone else, sadly including all other EV cars and their "sad" owners.

That is just messed up.

a

 

[afadeev]

You need to look at the complete energy generation and consumption ecosystem, not just what happens within the confines of your vehicle!

Actually, you don't.

You’re all wet.....

Well, that was insightful.
With a side-order of ad-hominem.

Two things have been studied that are demonstrably true:

1. Even the best ICE converts gasoline to energy (tops out at about 35-40% in the most efficient engines) than the worst power plant (which usually is in the 60-70% range), even incorporating energy losses due to transmission. That translates to an EV contributing less CO2 when using coal to generate the electricity at the plant.

2. Electricity generation absolutely differs by location. You can use this simple form to see how your car compares based on where you actually live. I'll save you time, though, by letting you know that there's no scenario where a BEV isn't better than an ICE. How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?

#1 - agreed.
#2 - agreed.

None of the above in any way relates to, or dispute my point to the other guy that: "EVs are only "locally" cleaner."
As in, electricity generation is not 100% pollution free, and in the US, 83% of it is coming form non-renewable (e.g.: unsustainable) sources.

83% non-renewable energy generation is an improvement on 100% non-renewable source in ICE cars, but not all that great either.

Somehow, in the words of the people who can't read and like to argue, the above is "demonstrably untrue though".
OK, you go ahead and enjoy that mantra.

Kudos to the guy who has installed solar panels on his roof. I am in the middle of back-and-forth with Tesla over sizing and pricing of solar + powerwall for my house. So far, the payoff is 14.3 years out, net of incentives and rebates. With our NJ utilities refusing to pay for the electricity fed back into the grid (only get "credits" for future consumption), the business case for the panels is tenuous.

But THAT would be truly 100% clean EV ecosystem, with zero emissions at either the vehicle bumper, or point of electricity generation!

My apologies if that above is too hard to follow.

 

[Knightshade]

#1 - agreed.
#2 - agreed.

None of the above in any way relates to, or dispute my point to the other guy that: "EVs are only "locally" cleaner."

I mean, it literally does both relate to and dispute that point

If you agree that power to run an EV is always cleaner than power to run an ICE, regardless of the type of power plant, then EVs aren't only "locally" cleaner, they're always cleaner period.

They might be more cleaner or less cleaner depending on electric source, but either way always cleaner.

As in, electricity generation is not 100% pollution free

Which, again, is a claim nobody in the entire thread ever made.

You just pulled it out of thin air, then tried to knock it down like the strawman it is.

 

[Leafdriver333]

I bought a used LEAF because it was different and cost me less money for fuel. However, the range was too limiting.

Consequently, I bought a sexy Model 3 instead of a boring Bolt.

Saving the environment was never a deciding factor in my car purchase decisions.

17% recyclable source for my 55kwh battery? Awesome!
My 19 previous cars ran 100% on gasoline.
Now I save 80% on fuel cost!!! And I am having 50% more fun!!! And it is 17% better for the Earth!!!!!!

Win! x Win!! X WIN!!!

 

[MXWing]

As in, electricity generation is not 100% pollution free, and in the US, 83% of it is coming form non-renewable (e.g.: unsustainable) sources.

I don’t catch 100% when wiping my ass but I still try.

What is your point here?

Lastly, no one is forcing you to get solar through Tesla. Tesla has no advantages in solar worth their price premium.

Different product than the car.

 

[derotam]

TM3 is my third EV, but the only one that comes with a group of owners who have nothing positive to say about the EV movement overall.

Wait, there is an EV movement? Looking at the automotive world it sure doesn't look like much of a movement, at least not yet. haha

 

[dmurphy]

Tesla has no advantages in solar worth their price premium.

Different product than the car.

Not wading into the (—-)show above but wanted to touch on this .... I haven’t been keeping up, but what’s the latest with the solar shingles? That, to me, should be the game-changer. That’s where I think Tesla’s advantage could be. Otherwise, I’m in agreement. Their current solar products are nothing interesting. Powerwall, somewhat moreso. But the shingles could change matters altogether.