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We Hear: Slew of German EVs Will Battle Tesla Model S

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"while (Bmw's new eletric vehicle) is technically a plug in hybrid (...)travel on pure electricity for up to 80 miles" ... It's not "technically" a plug in hybrid, it is a plug in hybrid... That's like saying "A Model S is a combustion car. Actually that is not true, while it does have a much longer range than other EVs it is an electric vehicle, but we are trying to sell it as an ICE car.


The german car markers probably have problems in producing cheap enough batteries and havn't come up with a good charging solution like the Superchargers so they all go down the plug in hybrid route. Noone will want to buy an electric BMW 5 series with 150 mile range at Autobahn speeds and without any way to recharge quickly on the way. While Tesla has a similar problem with Europe's higher cruising speeds on motorways at least they provide you with a quick way to recharge.

Before you buy a plugin hybrid you may as well buy a modern Diesel. Cheaper...

 
Again the magic of the Model S is the supercharger network. Nothing compares and it makes EV's practical. Until I see the germans rolling out a global supercharger network they are not in the same class as Tesla.

Bingo.
Either push some significant chips into the middle of the table or shut your mouth.
Playing on the fringes is only that: playing.

Because it is NOT about just developing a relevant longer range EV, it is about developing and installing a real world charging Network.
Yes, Tesla still has some gaps in theirs, but they bleeding have one.
And they have been continually working to improve and expand it.

Nissan has a better charging "network" than BMW, simply because they have more dealers.
MB?
Porsche?
Audi?

Vapor.....
 
A pick from the story:

Porsche, which already offers a plug-in Panamera, is considering a stand-alone EV model to add to its portfolio. The model, possibly to be called the 717, will slot in the vague area between the luxury-minded Panamera and exotic 918 Spyder. Unlike the Tesla, which features a large battery pack in the floor, the 717 would cram over 100 small batteries into pockets of the car where there is extra space, including the center tunnel, doorsills, and even the footwells and overhangs. Three different power levels -- from 400, 500, and 600 hp -- are under consideration.

I'm sorry but this is really what is the problem with the competition (well, one of them). And, again, this is coming from a guy whose almost entire automotive life used to circle around the Germans... If the hypothetical Porsche 717 is as the article claims, Porsche is again missing the point and living in their ICE past. There is no need for a center tunnel in a car that doesn't need it for transmission, a drive shaft and/or (as many FWDs use it) for exhaust. BMW making the same mistake if i5 is indeed based on the stretch 5 Series, instead of a completely new build.

I get it that it makes some sense for the old manufacturers to look for synergies in their ICE production and existing ICE platforms they've invested heavily in, but it is also a major step that is holding them back. The interior and cargo space Tesla was able to come up with, when they were free to dream the optimal setup, is nothing short of astonishing. And once I realized the beauty of what kind of a car you can build when your entire drivetrain is a skateboard and relatively small upward protrusions over one or two axles and near the tires, you basically have this amazing blank canvas to build a car on. No longer are you building around the usual culprits, you can build anything on this slate with wheels (and maybe Tesla indeed will go a bit wild on the Model 3). And you can even do stuff like automated battery replacement, if you want. Plus, I'm sure building it is cheaper and volume can be reached easier when the whole is that simple.

And that's when the magic happens.

For similar reasons as many other early EVs, the Roadster was not able to convince in this area yet, as it lived in the ICE age design-wise. It showed the idea that batteries could run a car at range, but not yet much more. But when I understood the design of the Model S way back when, I was truly and finally sold on the concept. (This, in addition to things like the Superchargers, of course, as others mention - a major differentiator for Tesla. It is all about the infrastructure.)

Like I said in my signature entry thread, it is amazing that Model S actually has the most cargo space of any car I've owned, and it is also the quickest (acceleration). Translate this idea into the Model X and you're not only threatening the SUV territory on available space (as P85 does), but you should be able to go well above.

Now, I'm not saying a battery skateboard is necessarily the only way to build a great EV. But I doubt taking a frame of an ICE and trying to fit an entirely different drivetrain concept into it, is the way to go either. Maybe something else innovative still appears, early days yet for BEVs...

Color me unimpressed, land of the Vorsprung.
 
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Before you buy a plugin hybrid you may as well buy a modern Diesel. Cheaper...

I personally view Diesel cars as a failed experiment, France is learning that lesson the hard way due to particulate pollution.


I had the diesel option when buying our Mercedes GLK, and chose gas.
We've only put 15000km on it in 2 years, as it is the car we take only when we need more than two people.
Otherwise we drive my Smart ED which has more than 10000km in 1.5 years.

If you average the gas used vs distance driven for our two cars, it's like getting 5L/100km in one car, the same as a hybrid.
Total cost for both cars was $52K, less than half the cost of buying two hybrid sedans.

So, we got a 300HP luxury SUV for road trips, a small city EV runabout, and overall get the same efficiency as driving two limp hybrids. And the Smart ED is WAY more fun to drive than any gas car I've owned (including Z28, etc).
Works for us. ;-)

Cheers!
 
I disagree. I feel an electric motor is definitely superior to a diesel, and has far superior capabilities if you are mostly doing city driving.

+1.

I completely agree. The minimal electric range of the upcoming plugin hybrids from European luxury manufacturers will only serve to frustrate owners, as they will come to find electric only driving to be more luxurious and want more of that!
 
Quite so. People often forget that buying a Tesla is about more than just the car: its the whole package, from the showroom experience to customizing online to the sc network. The Germans haven't even begun to address these attributes.

Well, that is because apart from the SC's, what do you mean by the ingredients of your "package"?

1) In what way is the showroom experience at a Tesla store different from that of other automakers? I didn't experience much of a difference, apart from the fact that the staff was using iPads instead of regular computers (which already annoyed me a bit, because it showed that they don't really care about costs to the customer).

2) Customizing online? Yeah, so what? Every automaker I know (or at least care about, don't know about Mahindra, BYD or Lada) offers an online customization feature. And here in Germany there are even quite a few online car dealing services that get you great discounts on fully customizable dealer sold cars of all major makes (except Tesla as they don't offer discounts) without you having to haggle at a dealership. That is actually how we bought our Touran. Great user experience by the way.

So yes, the SC network is the defining advantage of Tesla, plus the fact that the Model S is such a great car in many relevant aspects. The rest of your so-called package is nothing special when compared to other relevant automakers.

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I personally view Diesel cars as a failed experiment

Having driven Diesel cars all my life and looking at the statistics of car sales in Europe I can say if it is a failed experiment, it sure is a very successful one, and has been for decades.

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Now, I'm not saying a battery skateboard is necessarily the only way to build a great EV. But I doubt taking a frame of an ICE and trying to fit an entirely different drivetrain concept into it, is the way to go either.

Agree, but for the time being, take a look at the e-Golf. That fits your description above, yet it definitely is a great EV. Sure, not a long range EV, but for what it was designed to accomplish it surely succeeded even though it doesn't have the freedom from design restrictions that the Model S has.
 
I personally view Diesel cars as a failed experiment, France is learning that lesson the hard way due to particulate pollution.


I had the diesel option when buying our Mercedes GLK, and chose gas.
We've only put 15000km on it in 2 years, as it is the car we take only when we need more than two people.
Otherwise we drive my Smart ED which has more than 10000km in 1.5 years.

If you average the gas used vs distance driven for our two cars, it's like getting 5L/100km in one car, the same as a hybrid.
Total cost for both cars was $52K, less than half the cost of buying two hybrid sedans.

So, we got a 300HP luxury SUV for road trips, a small city EV runabout, and overall get the same efficiency as driving two limp hybrids. And the Smart ED is WAY more fun to drive than any gas car I've owned (including Z28, etc).
Works for us. ;-)

Cheers!

I know diesels aren't popular in americaas the cost savings aren't really there but diesel is a really good and safe fuel in modern cars. Less maintainance/loss of quality over years, a lot of advancements like double compression, turbo charging etc, less emissions, higher resale value,and the fuel is much cheaper than petrol and fuel consumption lower. 5L/100km is quite low for a petrol SUV but I assume you mean at american speeds? Also at low speeds the SUVs don't suffer too much from their size. Once you go above 80mph fuel consumption really goes through the roof in an SUV.
 
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The rest of your so-called package is nothing special when compared to other relevant automakers.

You didn't actually compare Tesla to other relevant automakers. You gave a single personal example. If we scroll through this forum alone, we'll find many more singular personal examples that show exactly the opposite of yours. Tesla's package is special, if it wasn't they wouldn't have to fight NADA, they wouldn't have some complaining about 'no discounts/haggling' while others praise them about 'no discounts/haggling, they'd be out of business already not having any formal or traditional advertising, and so on...

Out of curiosity, how does a Tesla rep using an iPad vs a desktop computer say to the customer that Tesla doesn't care about costs to the customer? If you think a higher unit price of such a device is the deciding factor, then I'd disagree because you don't actually know if Tesla employees having those devices in anyway affects the price of the Model S. I'd venture a guess the answer is no simply based on historical data coming out of Tesla, such as SC's running on 0% profit, and international pricing being even across the board - price differences being strictly ruled by import taxes, currency differences and the like, and Tesla continuing to add value to the cars via updates, etc...

Having driven Diesel cars all my life and looking at the statistics of car sales in Europe I can say if it is a failed experiment, it sure is a very successful one, and has been for decades.

Success isn't necessarily selling a lot of something. There's far more to it than that. Sure, it's how some measure success - show me the money. The end result of all those diesel vehicles on the road is what's up for debate here in terms of diesel success. Choking on the poisonous aftermath might not be considered a success in the end by the human race.
 
Agree, but for the time being, take a look at the e-Golf. That fits your description above, yet it definitely is a great EV. Sure, not a long range EV, but for what it was designed to accomplish it surely succeeded even though it doesn't have the freedom from design restrictions that the Model S has.

I agree the e-golf has a usable range and is a nice entry into the small EV market, although performance seems quite paltry. I'm sure the e-golf could be much more with freedom, and with the dedication that the likes of Tesla puts into it all (Superchargers included), but still - if you can charge at home and have a reasonable daily commute, the e-golf will have enough range to rarely be anxious, perhaps even if you have to skip the daily charge on some occasions.

This can't be said of most of the EVs out there, so certaily e-golf is a nice contender with the range that it has.

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Success isn't necessarily selling a lot of something. There's far more to it than that. Sure, it's how some measure success - show me the money. The end result of all those diesel vehicles on the road is what's up for debate here in terms of diesel success. Choking on the poisonous aftermath might not be considered a success in the end by the human race.

Perhaps I'm missing your point, but this is definitely a regional difference - in Europe diesel's have been immensely successful in cars/SUVs, as in outselling regular gasoline cars in many occasions and offering superior torque and CO2 (with known caveats of course). I understand not so in the U.S.

Now, I'm by no means a fan of diesel, but there have been some fantastic cars sold in massive numbers in Europe that are diesel. There have also been some more special cases, for example, at one point in time the quickest current Audi A8 was a diesel (until special models later appeared).
 
You didn't actually compare Tesla to other relevant automakers. You gave a single personal example. If we scroll through this forum alone, we'll find many more singular personal examples that show exactly the opposite of yours. Tesla's package is special, if it wasn't they wouldn't have to fight NADA, they wouldn't have some complaining about 'no discounts/haggling' while others praise them about 'no discounts/haggling, they'd be out of business already not having any formal or traditional advertising, and so on...

Out of curiosity, how does a Tesla rep using an iPad vs a desktop computer say to the customer that Tesla doesn't care about costs to the customer?

...

Success isn't necessarily selling a lot of something. There's far more to it than that. Sure, it's how some measure success - show me the money. The end result of all those diesel vehicles on the road is what's up for debate here in terms of diesel success. Choking on the poisonous aftermath might not be considered a success in the end by the human race.

As far as comparing Tesla to other relevant automakers is concerned, sure, my answer only referred to my own personal experience I had with Tesla store personnel, which I could compare with that of store personnel from Audi, BMW, Ford, Mercedes, Renault, Skoda and VW. And from my personal experience alone, I can say the Tesla experience was no different, not better, not worse. That's all.

And the Tesla online customization and ordering system that thranx mentioned is also nothing special to Tesla but available at every other major automaker. At least over here, don't know about the US.
Also NADA? Never heard of them. Over here, car dealerships in general belong to certain automakers or are kind of franchise partners.
When someone wants to buy a car over here, he either goes to a dealership of the brand of his choice, configures and orders the car, or he goes to the brand website or that of specialist discount car dealers and configures and orders there. Where's the difference to Tesla?

And about those ipads. Imho anyone who uses Apple products shows me that he doesn't care for value for money. Apple products are hideously overpriced for what they accomplish, no one who has disagreed with me about that has ever been able to prove to me otherwise. Hence I react very negatively to salespeople using Apple devices. But that in itself wouldn't stop me from dealing with them, it just irks me because, and I admit that freely, I hate Apple so much. (I just can't understand why so many people fall for them, but if someone has money to waste, why not, let them be happy with their iCrap.). Of course I am not so stupid as to think that a Model S would be much more expensive because Tesla store personnel use Apple devices.

And about Diesel cars: of course they are highly successful (at least over here in Europe), and not just because of their huge sales numbers. Diesels are the most efficient ICE cars available. They are fun to drive, get great MPGs, and especially when you drive a lot, nothing beats them economically. And really, chocking on the fumes? In what way are modern Diesels with all their filtering systems more poisonous than other ICEs? Small particles? I'd wager that exhaust from lorrys (trucks) is far worse.
 
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Success isn't necessarily selling a lot of something. There's far more to it than that. Sure, it's how some measure success - show me the money. The end result of all those diesel vehicles on the road is what's up for debate here in terms of diesel success. Choking on the poisonous aftermath might not be considered a success in the end by the human race.

Maybe in america. In europe particle emission rules are very strict. The average american petrol car is likely to cause way more pollution than a modern european diesel. Imho, I don't have any hard evidence for this.
 
AustinPowers: There's a reason Apple sells so well and why people pay "the Apple Tax". It applies to car buyers as well. The fact is, by and large, for the majority of the consuming public, it just WORKS. It passes what I call "The Mommy Test" - people can figure stuff out without a manual. Let me say that I've spent 35+ years as a software architect and engineer. I've designed systems, built computers, written documentation, trained users - you name it. WIndows and Android are great for people who are technically minded. Apple is for everyone else. My wife is a very intelligent person with skills in other areas that I could never hope to have - but *I'm* the techie. She is VERY frequently asking for help when it comes to her laptop (Windows) but almost never has to ask about anything when it comes to her iPhone or iPad. Put a price tag on the "it just works" and the residual value if you ever want to upgrade and the numbers start to show something.

The same holds true for Tesla. Yeah, you can buy a Volt for less money. You can buy a Ford Fusion Energi for less money - but you're losing money when you look at all the maintenance and consumables that go into it.

I have Windows products all over the house - I run media servers, RAID arrays and more - it's a hobby in addition to having been my career (before they made me a manager). *I* maintain them. But, for my wife, a Windows or Android phone would be more hassle. And who cares that you saved $150 on your phone when it doesn't do what you want, your carrier decides you don't get the latest Android update or (in my case with WinPhone) they reneg on their promise that the phone you paid for will get the wonderful new upgrade. I have daughters who don't want iOS products but can't stop complaining about how frustrating their Galaxy 5 and Droids are. My friend's 2 year old iPad runs a LOT better than my 2 year old Android-based tablet from Amazon. My wife's iPad Air 2 was expensive - but not twice as expensive as a Kindle HDX which can't run as much software easily (yes, you can side-load but that fails the Mommy Test big time - and the Google Play store isn't exactly the safest around - only now is Google starting to get serious about screening potential malware)

I most certainly DO care about value for money. That's why I'm NOT buying a cheaper (to buy) ICE car next time around and am waiting for the Model 3, which will cost me FAR less in the long run (I'm hanging on to a 2002 Camry with 254,000 miles on it that still runs VERY well).
 
Please elaborate. More specifically, I don't see how the bold supports the underlined.

Didn't I do that already? Apple products imho are overpriced to the extreme. A company who cares about costs should go for value for money. The way that it is, the customer gets the impression
"hey, they are trying to be cool, using fancy luxury products for something as simple as information input. Obviously they have money to waste. Hey, wait a minute, in the end I have to pay for that. Well, now I know why I don't get a discount or why their product is so expensive to begin with".
Now, I personally am not saying that this line of thought is entirely logical, but especially when it comes to buying cars, logic often doesn't apply.

At least German customers are very price minded, and are used to getting big discounts. Now they have a startup automaker who says "here is our product, this is its price. If you want it, take it, if not, leave it". To German customers, especially in the premium segment, that kind of attitude is highly strange and is certainly part of the reason why the Model S doesn't sell that well over here, at least much worse than EM had hoped (1,000 per month I think he had in mind originally). The ipads used for no real reason (they only used them to get the personal data of the customer, honestly, what a waste of equipment, they wouldn't even have needed an Android tablet for that actually) are just a tiny part in that overall picture.

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AustinPowers: There's a reason Apple sells so well and why people pay "the Apple Tax". It applies to car buyers as well. The fact is, by and large, for the majority of the consuming public, it just WORKS. It passes what I call "The Mommy Test" - people can figure stuff out without a manual.

...

The same holds true for Tesla. Yeah, you can buy a Volt for less money. You can buy a Ford Fusion Energi for less money - but you're losing money when you look at all the maintenance and consumables that go into it.

To answer to the second argument first: as we have discussed in lots of other threads and postings, the TCO argument doesn't necessarily hold true for all. Tesla annual maintenance costs for example are considerably higher than what we have had to pay for any of our ICE cars we ever had. Factor in the expensive electricity in Germany and the high starting price of the Model S and you arrive very quickly at a scenario where the Model S is quite a bit more expensive to run than its ICE counterpart.

And as for the first argument: maybe I am a genius (I highly doubt that), but I have never needed to look at a manual to use an Android device either. Even our three year old daughter has found out how to work mum's and dad's Android phones - actually we were shocked when we first saw her consciously unlock these phones and navitage to the videos, pictures or games she wanted to watch or play. And again, we are talking about a three year old for crying out loud!
So no, I don't see any advantage in Apple products for the average user.
The fact of the matter is that as far as I have had the chance to experience, image (and effective advertising, like with cars) seems to be the main reason why people tend to ignore the high price of Apple devices. In some "scenes" (for lack of a better word), if you want to be regarded as cool, hip and "with it", you just have to have an Apple device (and every year a new one at that, because - of course - once a new device comes out, the one that came before (which until the day the successor became available was cool, hip and impossible to live without) immediately becomes crap, obsolete and uncool!)
 
Apple products imho are overpriced to the extreme.
I'd rather say they are very cheap. Customers can't wait to pay and get them.

What is overpriced is a product that is waiting in a saloon for someone to come and buy it.
Like all those BMWs, Audis and MBs in saloons that no one wants to pay full price.
Shops need to lower the prices so they can sell them at all.
A dictionary definition of "overpriced".
 
I'd rather say they are very cheap. Customers can't wait to pay and get them.

What is overpriced is a product that is waiting in a saloon for someone to come and buy it.
Like all those BMWs, Audis and MBs in saloons that no one wants to pay full price.
Shops need to lower the prices so they can sell them at all.
A dictionary definition of "overpriced".

"Customers can't wait to pay and get them"
That's like the old saying "eat feces, a million flys can't be wrong". Just because lots of people are gullible enough to fall for Apple's marketing tactics and percieved status or image factor doesn't mean that their products are cheap.

And what do you mean by "a product waiting in a saloon"? Do you buy cars that are standing on the lot? Who does that? Those are for showing some variants of what is possible and for allowing the customer to get a feel for sizes, seat comfort etc. as well as for test drives.
Then, if you decide to buy a car from that brand, you go back to the dealer (or the website of the brand), configure according to your wishes, negotiate the price and order. Done. And if you want to pay even less, you configure and order via online discount dealers.

Those cars on the lot are sold at a later date as used vehicles if someone cares for such a car.

By the way, this does not only apply to cars. Same goes for furniture, kitchens and high end electronics and the like. At least here in Germany that is.
Basically, the more expensive a product, the more likely customers are to negotiate.