Weak brakes on my M3

[GtiMart]

To answer part of OP's questions, no you're not fighting the motors. Just remember that the 3 is a relatively heavy car so it takes some energy to stop it. depending on what you drove before you might feel like the brakes are not as good. The model 3 brakes can certainly stop the car correctly but you might need a bit more pressure than what you're used to. I don't find the feeling particularly strong either but they stop plenty when I really need them to. As @Knightshade indicates I can easily trigger ABS on dry pavement with sportier than stock all season tires.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

This video might help WRT stopping distances

 

[Knightshade]

. The link you gave does not talk about pad betting at all, so, it pretty much assumes proper bedding.

Here's the same guy talking about bedding, since you bring it up- he does so in a whitepaper he wrote for Stoptech (now owned by Centric) where one of the questions is specifically what happens if you drive without bedding-

https://www.centricparts.com/media/wysiwyg/technical-bulletins/Bed-In_FAQ_s.pdf

The brake system will still perform well under normal driving conditions, but before heading to the autocross or your favorite canyon
back road you will want to perform a bed-in procedure. Failing to do so will only increase the
risk of TV generation

In normal street use this won't change anything. Only in relatively "abusive" track/autocross type driving would you run into any issues- and they'd be ones of inconsistent feel, or uneven heating to the point fade might creep in sooner when repeatedly doing high speed/high heat stops... nothing that would impact street driving or a single emergency stop outside of "feel"

Just like I told you from the start.

This video might help WRT stopping distances

Yup, just as I said, the brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.

If you want to stop shorter you need better tires, not better (or better bedded) brakes.

If you want to improve the FEEL (or in some cases the service life) of your brakes THEN changing or bedding are worth looking at.

 

[dsgerbc]

Here's the same guy talking about bedding, since you bring it up- he does so in a whitepaper he wrote for Stoptech (now owned by Centric) where one of the questions is specifically what happens if you drive without bedding-

https://www.centricparts.com/media/wysiwyg/technical-bulletins/Bed-In_FAQ_s.pdf

In normal street use this won't change anything. Only in relatively "abusive" track/autocross type driving would you run into any issues- and they'd be ones of inconsistent feel, or uneven heating to the point fade might creep in sooner when repeatedly doing high speed/high heat stops... nothing that would impact street driving or a single emergency stop outside of "feel"

Just like I told you from the start.

Using one's brain is hard. Reading articles and evaluating context/applicability of results requires more than reading comprehension.
ICE cars (which that whitepaper is written for) will slowly bed-in their pads under normal operation (unless one drives like a grandma, never more than feathering the brake pedal). Because all braking from highway speeds will be done by pads. EVs will not.
And the equilibrium pad transfer layer condition on EV brakes that pad been properly burnished in the past is likely to be quite a bit worse than on ICE cars. The transfer layer steady state depends on how much brakes are used (and hence how much pad material is being deposited on rotors to replace one that is being scrubbed off), and plenty of EV owners take pride in using brakes as little as possible.

And it will matter in an emergency panic stop. But you are free to take your chances.

 

[dsgerbc]

Yeah I'm not though.

Take a fresh out of the factory, nobody bedded the brakes, Tesla (or any other new car).

Now do a single emergency stop.

Does ABS engage? (I guarantee you it does)

That means you already have the maximum decel the tires can deliver.

You will activate ABS, but this is not a valid test. New OEM tires come covered in 'mold release compound' and don't reach their peak grip for 100-200 miles (or a few intense figure-8 drives) later, once the outer layer has been scrubbed off.

 

[Knightshade]

You will activate ABS, but this is not a valid test. New OEM tires come covered in 'mold release compound' and don't reach their peak grip for 100-200 miles

...what?

Apart from the insane moving of goalposts here, the original poster said he had 700 miles on the car.

700 is more than 100-200.

And what I wrote would apply at either number of miles of course. It's not like the car magically stops being able to enage ABS after 100-200 miles. So again... WTF are you even talking about here and how do you think it's relevant to... anything?

Using one's brain is hard.

Yes, your posts have provided a terrific demonstration of that

Reading articles and evaluating context/applicability of results requires more than reading comprehension.

Sure, but maybe at least start there and we can move on to harder stuff once you get the basics down?

ICE cars (which that whitepaper is written for) will slowly bed-in their pads under normal operation (unless one drives like a grandma, never more than feathering the brake pedal). Because all braking from highway speeds will be done by pads. EVs will not.

None of which has anything, at all, to do with the actual discussion.

Since as I quoted from the brake expert the braking performance will be fine either way in normal use.

Like I told you originally.

Three times now.

And it will matter in an emergency panic stop. But you are free to take your chances.

The guy who designed braking systems for car makers and brake system OEMs says otherwise.

And you've been unable to explain how if you can engage ABS any magic "transfer layer" would change your stopping distance- since that would defy the actual laws of physics.

It's a good idea to bed anyway because it'll improve feel and, more importantly, can significantly improve the life of the pads/rotors. But it won't stop the car any shorter because in a panic stop even unbedded brakes will engage ABS just fine and the car can not stop any shorter than that.

But you are free to ignore experts and physics I guess.

 

[Sendit1]

Good info here. I for one appreciate it.

 

[dsgerbc]

And you've been unable to explain how if you can engage ABS any magic "transfer layer" would change your stopping distance- since that would defy the actual laws of physics.

It's a good idea to bed anyway because it'll improve feel and, more importantly, can significantly improve the life of the pads/rotors. But it won't stop the car any shorter because in a panic stop even unbedded brakes will engage ABS just fine and the car can not stop any shorter than that.

But you are free to ignore experts and physics I guess.

Little point in continuing this conversation, you clearly never tried to brake hard with freshly installed pads/rotors, nor did you ever drive any cars where their owners never have to brake even moderately hard (like elderly relatives that only go the nearest store). Neither would engage ABS, except in low grip conditions and/or on shitty rubber.

I've done both: A few years back I had new rotors/pads delivered the night before an autox event, so I swapped those in on-site. The first run was dreadful.
I also have a few relatives who don't brake much, whose cars I help maintain when I'm around.

Sure, It's possible to massively overdesign a brake system so that it would engage ABS even on high-quality summer tires with zero pad bedding. But that costs extra $$$ and the bean counters that make sure car manufacturers turn a profit would send it back for a redesign. So, no, OEM brake systems won't be sufficient to engage ABS for all combinations of pad/rotor conditions and tire quality.

If one runs crappy all-seasons on their 3, but has Brembos, their braking performance is more likely to be tire limited. If one runs decent summer tires on non-performance brakes and largely uses regen, chances their brake performance is compromised due to the transfer layer degradation is higher. And besides, a lot of Teslas I see on parking lots tend to have front rotors that look seriously neglected, with uneven wear grooves and rust in places one shouldn't see. That also degrades performance.

In general, I do not understand why are you arguing with a simple point "go run brake burnishing and see if it helps." It's freaking free. I'm not advocating spending $$$$, just using the option already embedded with the car.

 

[Knightshade]

Little point in continuing this conversation, you clearly never tried to brake hard with freshly installed pads/rotors

Of course I have. In fact hard braking is exactly how you most quickly bed new pads

Your replies keep getting weirder.

, nor did you ever drive any cars where their owners never have to brake even moderately hard (like elderly relatives that only go the nearest store). Neither would engage ABS, except in low grip conditions and/or on shitty rubber.

wut?

If you're braking moderately then you can get more braking simply pressing the pedal harder- regardless of the state of how bedded the pads are or not... that has nothing to do with best braking distance.

And you absolutely would engage ABS if the first case (hard braking on new pads/rotors) so again you aren't making any sense as reflected in physics or reality.

Sure, It's possible to massively overdesign a brake system so that it would engage ABS even on high-quality summer tires with zero pad bedding.

Not only is it possible- it's how virtually every OEM braking system has come from the factory on every production car for decades.

Do you only drive cars from the 60s with crappy drum brakes and antique pads or something? That'd explain a whole lot I guess?


Once again though don't take my word for it- here's a bunch more experts telling you you're wrong:

Why Braking Is All About Tires

If you want to upgrade your brakes, start with your tires.

www.roadandtrack.com

If you drive a car that can lock up the brakes (nearly all can), then stopping distance improvements will be extremely minimal with larger, more powerful brake kits, assuming your ABS functions adequately.

Don't like Road and Track? Here's car and driver telling you the same-

Tested: The Power to Stop Brake Test

From the Archive: The difference between a good set of brakes and an inferior one may come down to fade resistance. We perform comprehensive brake tests on mainstream sedans, luxury SUVs, and performance cars.

www.caranddriver.com

every car has brakes strong enough for the anti-lock system to hold its tires on the verge of lockup for at least one stop. So when a vehicle’s brakes are cold, the stopping distance is more dependent on the traction of the tires than the power of the brakes.

Or hey, since you mention Brembo!

Brembo Frequently Asked Questions

Brembo's high performance braking systems are designed, developed and manufactured to equip the most prestigious car and motorcycles, the industrial and commercial vehicles and the most performing racing team.

www.nolimitmotorsport.com

Where can I find test data on stopping distances?
At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire's grip on the pavement. As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time

I eagerly await your next reply full of 1960s era braking knowledge though!


Back here in the future even "cheap OEM" brakes have gotten so good Road and Track had to add 100-0 testing to their suite because 70-0 was so rarely producing any problems or fade at all- and that was over 6 back to back stops, let alone a single one.

Short Stop: We've Added a New Brake Test to Our Repertoire

Braking from 100 mph is our newest test.

www.caranddriver.com

In general, I do not understand why are you arguing with a simple point "go run brake burnishing and see if it helps." It's freaking free. I'm not advocating spending $$$$, just using the option already embedded with the car.

I'm not arguing it may help the FEEL of the brakes. It certainly might-- and might also help their longevity.

What it will NOT help with is stopping any shorter, because physics.

In general I do not understand why you keep arguing about that, despite every available source showing you're wrong (or at least working from decades-out-of-date assumptions about OEM brakes)