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What do you think is causing the limited tow capability of the new Cybertruck?
- Thread starter maverick3n1
- Start date
I think what he's trying to say is that Tesla has consistently claimed that they make the most efficient EVs on the market - and historically this has largely been the case with a few noted exceptions such as Lucid - who introduced electric motors that were about 50% more efficient than Tesla motors at the time - which is why Lucid was able to offer over 500 miles of range on their premium models with a larger pack. This motivated Tesla to produce their newer hairpin motors in response.
The early tests seem to indicate that the CT - Tesla's newest and most anticipated model to market since 2020 - isn't really any more efficient on a kwh/mile basis than either the F150L or the competing Rivian models that were tested under at least similar circumstances (though admittedly not the same circumstances). This would seem to indicate that Tesla no longer has any real advantage regarding BEV efficiency. According to Drew Baglino, who’s Tesla’s Senior Vice President of Powertrain and Energy, the Cybertruck is already using hairpin motors which should improve the truck’s efficiency - so it's supposedly already using the most efficient motors. It's a bit surprising to me at least, from early test results, that we're not seeing better efficiency.
Where Tesla still has a measured advantage is in manufacturing BEVs at a profit - so IMHO Tesla's primary advantage is no longer vehicle efficiency - it's manufacturing efficiencies. This is where the others lag Tesla measurably. Will the competition catch up? Honestly for me it's a toss up if any of the legacy manufacturers can do it in time. The Chinese manufacturers are likely closest. Here in the US, Lucid is still far from doing so, Rivian is getting there - at least there's a path toward profitability within a year or so. Stellantis is way behind. Ford is likely farthest along of the big three. GM has talked a lot and seems to be taking steps - but short of the Bolt - hasn't really done well at all in the actual marketplace - and the Bolt has had it's fair share of challenges. Tesla is still way out in front from a manufacturing efficiency/profitability standpoint without a doubt.
That said, the CT is a bit of a different animal. Musk literally termed the CT a niche product in the Sandy Munro interview recently. Not sure it's a niche product really, but clearly he doesn't see it as a mass market product like the 3/Y either. In a way I think Musk knows it's never going to be like the 3/Y from a manufacturing efficiency and profitability standpoint - which could be why he said Tesla dug it's own grave with this product. Only time will tell. I honestly think that the $20k FS "tax" is really more about keeping the CT production immaterial to Tesla financials for 2024 for the most part. Musk has repeatedly said the CT is a nightmare from a mass production standpoint (paraphrasing), and to not expect ramp for 12-18 months. Musk being an eternal optimist, makes me think it might even be longer than that. We aren't going to see Cyberbeast orders until late 2024 for example. This is all code for expensive and challenging. Even with Tesla's manufacturing efficiencies - they will lose money on every CT sold for a while most likely. Normally that'd be somewhere between 25-50% loss per vehicle. But even if they only produce 30k in all of 2024, that'd still be material financially, so all I can think is that the $20k add-on really covers most of the losses - such that the CT stays immaterial to Tesla financials for 2024. Just my two cents of course.
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I didn’t buy EVs/PV to save the planet. Couldn’t care less about ‘the mission’.
What I do care about is horrid employees(2) that attempt to make a name for themselves with my money. And as such, the world would be a better place without that company.
Not sure how eliminating one 12, now 13yr old garbage company is going to cause a monopoly, but I’m here for the answer.
I get this quite often from my Tesla fanboy friends as well. I turn the logic around on them whenever I hear this. Fact is most of the more objective Tesla coverage doesn't have any real skin in the game. They are just giving their open and honest opinions. Most of the Tesla "shills" to use your term in reverse - the insular fanboy community that surrounds Tesla - the alpha early adopters - particularly the YouTubers that provide almost daily updates on Tesla - are in reality far far more dependent on Tesla financially than the majority of it's detractors. The Youtuber base wouldn't exist without Tesla - which by definition means they are very dependent upon Tesla for their personal income streams. Anyone who falls into this bucket - I take with a serious grain of salt. Sure there's a few detractors that make big bets against Tesla via shorts and such - and those larger detractors are already pretty well known - but most of the detractors simply have more a skeptical approach to things in general when it comes to analysis.
Not sure what you mean. Are you sayin Rivian is a garbage company? Did you have a bad personal ownership experience? Know people that work(ed) there? Everyone has horror stories about BEV ownerships without a doubt - including many Tesla owners mind you. Everyone makes lemons - including Tesla. I don't really care about anecdotal stories for the most part, with this in mind, other than to understand the underlying motivations of what people post.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, quite a few of the engineers for many of the subsystems and software side.
I’m not speaking of a lemon, I’m speaking towards 7months of mistreatment and playing with our money, then laughing about it and the 20 or so voicemails I have from a few employees as well as the notes from the internal system showing how vile they allow their employees to be.
Are you a shrink/PHD? curious since this is typically what those professions like to turn internet convos towards, including the “I don’t really care…but I’m curious” portion.
I'm sure Rivian has it's fair share of horror stories - but I've also seen plenty of happy customer outcomes - so it's not universal. Rivian is definitely not as far down the line as Tesla is, so I'm also certain there's a ton of room for improvement - but I'd also surmise that of the handful of the US pure BEV manufacturers - Rivian seems to be in the best position to survive despite the challenges. No, I'm not a shrink/PHD - though I did minor in pysch in college - along with economics - with a degree in Finance/Business Admin - but I work in IT - have for my entire career really. I currently work for a software sales and services organization in the sales support area - I run a success management/product enablement team at present.
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What goalposts? No one ever said Ford was the best selling vehicle worldwide…. Try again…
46 temp
70 mph
122 kWh consumption
254 miles at ~2.05 m/kWh
www.youtube.com
70 mph
122 kWh consumption
254 miles at ~2.05 m/kWh
(Livestream) Tesla Cybertruck Highway Range Test
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I never would Have bought the S, I would take my 3 all day over the S. Today possibly a polestar, there are a ton of them up here. I’d do a model 3 if it wasn’t for the heat pump only and no way to turn down regen, I’m in Alaska the heat pump isn’t good when it gets cold, full regen sucks on winter roads. If I wasn’t somewhere that it gets cold I’d do a model 3 or Y.
I’ll probably buy a standard range 3 to keep on Oahu.
I dumped my CT as I couldn’t do anything with it I can do with my 3.
jebinc
Well-Known Member
Love my Rivian R1T more than all three of my Tesla's, including my bastardized (and vibrating) re re re re refreshed Model S Plaid....
Appreciate the time you took for that reply.
Absolutely and if you knew why you saw more positive than negative on forums/Reddit/social media channels, I believe you might be a bit soured towards it.
Employees are moderators.
I shared my experience, was met with personal attacks. Which, are quite funny… as if I’m to be offended by someone that is a literal paid shill. And yes, I caught a few of them dead to rights when they tried to deny being employees. Let alone the ones you see in the wild at CCS stations and point blank ask them, “are you an employee?” And they skirt it. Low VIN R1T are always a giveaway, but matching that data with internal system info or a quick phone call to employee friends and it checks out.
Let me make this clear, if tesla/bmw/GM/VAG had played the same games as riv… I’d have the same reaction.
Telling me I don’t own the vehicle that was outside of their office, with the title physically in my hand was hilarious. But hey… one of the employees got promoted, hopefully soon to customer. To be fair, one of these employees has MANY internet posts by many users describing exactly my experience to the T.
I’m enjoying the fact she’s cost them a little over 20 sales, personally known canceled orders due to us being vocal. And if I’m to believe one of the other owners PMs, 5 or so others. Wonder what amount of money it’ll take before they remove the problem.
jebinc
Well-Known Member
That's my goal for my Cybertruck posts - to save as many souls as possible from making the early adopter's mistake - and hopefully preventing many from being copiously "milked," by Uncle Elon....
I rented a polestar a few times it seemed very cramped and also not any better (worse really) in cold weather plus don't they cost more?
Ford and GM aren't losing money on RnD.
They are losing money on every single vehicle sold. Profit margin per vehicle.
RnD is separate. Its separate for Tesla also.
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jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
I've had enough. Sold my RIVN today before everyone else does. It wasn't a big investment, but I wanted out while I was still only a bit in the red.B-I-N-G-O
Riv disappears. The world will be a better place.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
Probably most interesting in this discussion is the claim that Ford isn't making a gross profit on the Lightning. I personally find that unlikely, and if true somehow, it probably won't remain that way for long. It's mostly an F-150. Is Ford not making profits on F-150s?
I did some Googling but didn't find a lot of solid information. Some sources report that most current Ford EV losses are due to capital projects for EVs, which wouldn't apply to gross profit. (e.g. Ford expects EV business unit to lose $3B this year, hit profitability in late 2026 | TechCrunch )
I have yet to find a source that clearly defines what the gross profit is on an F-150 Lightning, or just the Ford EV program in general. I would probably have to find and carefully pick through an earnings report, if those are public and sufficiently detailed.
I did some Googling but didn't find a lot of solid information. Some sources report that most current Ford EV losses are due to capital projects for EVs, which wouldn't apply to gross profit. (e.g. Ford expects EV business unit to lose $3B this year, hit profitability in late 2026 | TechCrunch )
I have yet to find a source that clearly defines what the gross profit is on an F-150 Lightning, or just the Ford EV program in general. I would probably have to find and carefully pick through an earnings report, if those are public and sufficiently detailed.
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