What do you think is causing the limited tow capability of the new Cybertruck?

[mongo]

If you look at the right front wheel on the Cybertruck it is barely touching the ground. Not what you want towing a Trailer. The Super Duty wheels are solidly planted on the ground and the Truck is almost level
View attachment 995571
View attachment 995567

The weight on both vehicles is the same. Both Trucks are driving in a straight line, One Truck is nose high with the front wheels barely touching the ground and the other Truck is solidly planted on the ground with the exact same weight on it.

The sled is connected by a chain, there is no weight on the trucks at the start and they all sit level until the torque from the rear wheels reacts against the hitch attachment resulting in unloading the front wheels. Rear load is dependent on connection point height, chain length, and pulling force.

The Cybertruck's air suspension results in additional rake due to the pull not lasting long enough for the rear shocks to air up for the load. If they had preloaded the chain, aired up, and then gone, it would have stayed flatter (but front would still lift).

Rivian experiences the same thing.

The Lightning is standard suspension and the front lifts at the start of pull.

The F350 has non-air suspension and 5k payload capacity, so it squats less and its front heavy center of gravity helps counter the lifting moment.

From a weight on tires point of view, the squat hurts traction.

Connection:

Pre-pull:

Rivian (also air suspension) :

 

[TessP100D]

Sure; happy to.... Best case range in ideal conditions, as reported by Tesla (and not EPA) is 320 for the truck doing that pull. Subtract 10% (+/-) from each end to represent typical usable battery leaves 256 miles of ideal range possible. Towing cuts that in half, approximately. That leaves 128 miles of usable towing range in ideal conditions. If it's cold out. or if anything is not "ideal," actual range will be less than 128 miles. FACT.

SuC = Super Charging

Can you please break it down for him, he’s new to trucking and rather dense

 

[TessP100D]

Look. It really doesn't matter what video/data Tesla puts out.

It really doesn't matter what happens. People are going to trash it.

Get on board then. You have eyes. Use them.

 

[gtgarner]

Get on board then. You have eyes. Use them.

Get on board with what?


I have over 150k miles on Tesla's version of the car driving itself.

Driving consistently to Tesla Service Centers with varying road construction and ramps with no interventions. <---Thats what my eyes see.

Name something better. Why can't you do that? Name a system that's better?

The majority of people that purchased Teslaas driving system are showing the truth and apparently not a part of this forum or thread.

Below is what my eyes see. PER DAY / EVERY Day with only 4 million vehicles sold so far.

Tesla FSD Milestone: FSD Now Drives 1 Million Miles Per Day

Tesla's latest Full Self-Driving milestone, as the fleet achieves 1 million miles driven per day, with rapid improvements and simulated training propelling auto

www.notateslaapp.com

Name something better. Why can't you do that? Name a system that's better?

 

[T3SLAROD]

Get on board with what?


I have over 150k miles on Tesla's version of the car driving itself.

Driving consistently to Tesla Service Centers with varying road construction and ramps with no interventions. <---Thats what my eyes see.

Name something better. Why can't you do that? Name a system that's better?

The majority of people that purchased Teslaas driving system are showing the truth and apparently not a part of this forum or thread.

Below is what my eyes see. PER DAY / EVERY Day with only 4 million vehicles sold so far.

Tesla FSD Milestone: FSD Now Drives 1 Million Miles Per Day

Tesla's latest Full Self-Driving milestone, as the fleet achieves 1 million miles driven per day, with rapid improvements and simulated training propelling auto

www.notateslaapp.com

Name something better. Why can't you do that? Name a system that's better?

Blue Cruise. It’s better than anything the CT currently has.

 

[Unclepaul]

Blue Cruise has it's own issues. Try another one.

 

[gtgarner]

Blue Cruise. It’s better than anything the CT currently has.

I actually tried Blue Cruise about a month ago. I really liked certain things about Blue Cruise, however: I can't start Blue Cruise in my driveway and get to Naperville Il Tesla Service Driveway with no interventions. I tried it.

Blue Cruise is for highway driving ONLY and does not yet work accurately on ALL highways.

I need Blue Cruise to stop at stop signs. I need Blue Cruise to recognize and react to Street lights. Etc.
I need Blue Cruise to drive on local streets /roundabouts like teslas system does. Then we can compare like with like.

 

[T3SLAROD]

I actually tried Blue Cruise about a month ago. I really liked certain things about Blue Cruise, however: I can't start Blue Cruise in my driveway and get to Naperville Il Tesla Service Driveway with no interventions. I tried it.

Blue Cruise is for highway driving ONLY and does not yet work accurately on ALL highways.

I need Blue Cruise to stop at stop signs. I need Blue Cruise to recognize and react to Street lights. Etc.
I need Blue Cruise to drive on local streets /roundabouts like teslas system does. Then we can compare like with like.

That’s just part of the safety aspect of it.

Tesla AP was better than BC before this dumb vision. I’m not sure what they were thinking to be honest.

Everything you want from BC is coming.

I don’t care for most of that stuff mainly because I like to drive the vehicle.

 

[MP3Mike]

It's mostly an F-150.

I don't think that is true. It has a custom frame, entirely different power train, different suspension, etc. The cab, and I think bed, are mostly the same, but even there the hood and tailgate are different. I'm not even sure if the seats are the same.

I did some Googling but didn't find a lot of solid information. Some sources report that most current Ford EV losses are due to capital projects for EVs, which wouldn't apply to gross profit. (e.g. Ford expects EV business unit to lose $3B this year, hit profitability in late 2026 | TechCrunch )

I have yet to find a source that clearly defines what the gross profit is on an F-150 Lightning, or just the Ford EV program in general. I would probably have to find and carefully pick through an earnings report, if those are public and sufficiently detailed.

Ford does split out the EV portion of their business into "Ford Model e", but they don't seem to provide the level of detail that Tesla and other EV startups seem to. https://s201.q4cdn.com/693218008/files/doc_financials/2023/q3/Q3-2023-Corporate-Earnings-Slides.pdf

This is essentially what you get:

It looks like they only report cost of sales number across all lines of business. But QoQ they sold 2k more vehicles and brought in the same revenue, which isn't the best.

 

[TessP100D]

Get on board with what?


I have over 150k miles on Tesla's version of the car driving itself.

Driving consistently to Tesla Service Centers with varying road construction and ramps with no interventions. <---Thats what my eyes see.

Name something better. Why can't you do that? Name a system that's better?

The majority of people that purchased Teslaas driving system are showing the truth and apparently not a part of this forum or thread.

Below is what my eyes see. PER DAY / EVERY Day with only 4 million vehicles sold so far.

Tesla FSD Milestone: FSD Now Drives 1 Million Miles Per Day

Tesla's latest Full Self-Driving milestone, as the fleet achieves 1 million miles driven per day, with rapid improvements and simulated training propelling auto

www.notateslaapp.com

Name something better. Why can't you do that? Name a system that's better?

Get in the car and drive her. Stop fooling around with The Big Fraud.

 

[walla2]

There hasn't been an on topic post for 3+ pages. Can you all go elsewhere for your measuring contests?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

The limiting factor; bureaucrats (Govt) and Tesla's desire to earn Carbon Credits trading stream, so they sandbagged the truck intentionally to appease the ZEV Nazi's.

CLASS 3 TRUCKS AND ZEV / CARBON TRADING

Basically, Class 3 trucks are hamstrung for earning the most valuable carbon credits under programs like the California's Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) and similar programs in other states and at the Federal level.
Tesla's carbon trading strategy is a core component of its business model. In 2022, Tesla's carbon credit sales reached a record high of $1.78 billion - a significant role in the company's revenue stream.
Through programs such as the ZEV program, Tesla earns credits for vehicles it produces and sells, which it sells to other automakers who fall short of their own emissions targets.
The details and calculations here, in terms of what Tesla might stand to lose were the CT a Class 3 vs a Class 2b, are complicated and beyond my expertise. But doing anything to lower the optimization of earning these credits is antithetical to a core of Tesla's business in recent years. Tesla has been actively and efficiently optimizing the policies set by CARB to maximize its ZEV credit earning potential.
"For instance, in October 2021, Tesla submitted its review for the 2022 Model 3 RWD, which comes in two different types of batteries: LFP and NCA. The LFP model reported about 376 UDDS miles, while the NCA model had about 352 UDDS miles. Despite the slight difference in range, both models were able to earn Tesla the maximum cap of 4.00 ZEV credits. The Tesla 2022 Model Y has a UDDS range of about 324 miles, which was still able to earn Tesla 3.74 ZEV credits. Through such optimizations, Tesla can ensure its compliance with CARB policies while also maximizing its ZEV credit earning potential. These regulations are set to continue up to the 2025 model year, and Tesla's ability to optimize its ZEV credit calculations will be a key factor in its continued success in the carbon trading market."

 

[gtgarner]

There hasn't been an on topic post for 3+ pages. Can you all go elsewhere for your measuring contests?

The towing topic has been beat to death.

 

[sublimejackman]

I actually tried Blue Cruise about a month ago. I really liked certain things about Blue Cruise, however: I can't start Blue Cruise in my driveway and get to Naperville Il Tesla Service Driveway with no interventions. I tried it.

What is with you and Naperville? Is that like the only place you go? FSD is a tech demo, great if it works in that narrow use case without you having to jump in. Seriously, if it works for you, great. But what it doesn't do is work for literally anyone else on planet earth other than the 100k or so Americans who paid for it (and most of them don't even use it all that often, cause why the hell would you want to babysit a new driver all the time?).

As for the towing, we all always knew the Cybertruck's range was going to be cut in half when towing. There are some videos now of people towing and even a relatively light load of ~3000lbs uses ~800wh/mi. Putting real world range at no more than ~150mi when towing anything substantial. I guess if this phantom "range extender" ever makes an appearance, that could help. But then no bed, so...

Overall I think this first pass at the Cybertruck is a pretty cool truck for early early adopters. But with a <300mi ideal range, <150mi range when towing and a >$100,000 price tag, the pool of people willing to buy it probably doesn't exceed 50K buyers total in the US. Price needs to come down at least 20-30% and range needs to go up at least 30-40% before anyone who "needs" a truck, buys a Cybertruck.

 

[gtgarner]

What is with you and Naperville? Is that like the only place you go? FSD is a tech demo, great if it works in that narrow use case without you having to jump in. Seriously, if it works for you, great. But what it doesn't do is work for literally anyone else on planet earth other than the 100k or so Americans who paid for it (and most of them don't even use it all that often, cause why the hell would you want to babysit a new driver all the time?).

As for the towing, we all always knew the Cybertruck's range was going to be cut in half when towing. There are some videos now of people towing and even a relatively light load of ~3000lbs uses ~800wh/mi. Putting real world range at no more than ~150mi when towing anything substantial. I guess if this phantom "range extender" ever makes an appearance, that could help. But then no bed, so...

Overall I think this first pass at the Cybertruck is a pretty cool truck for early early adopters. But with a <300mi ideal range, <150mi range when towing and a >$100,000 price tag, the pool of people willing to buy it probably doesn't exceed 50K buyers total in the US. Price needs to come down at least 20-30% and range needs to go up at least 30-40% before anyone who "needs" a truck, buys a Cybertruck.

I don't have a special thing about Naperville.

Naperville is far from me.
Getting to Naperville requires complicated local and expressway travel.
Getting to Naperville requires roundabout navigation and just about every other challenge I know about.
Lastly - I like to compare software systems using the same route.
I go to the town of Naperville a lot.

 

[TarmacSurfer]

What is with you and Naperville? Is that like the only place you go? FSD is a tech demo, great if it works in that narrow use case without you having to jump in. Seriously, if it works for you, great. But what it doesn't do is work for literally anyone else on planet earth other than the 100k or so Americans who paid for it (and most of them don't even use it all that often, cause why the hell would you want to babysit a new driver all the time?).

As for the towing, we all always knew the Cybertruck's range was going to be cut in half when towing. There are some videos now of people towing and even a relatively light load of ~3000lbs uses ~800wh/mi. Putting real world range at no more than ~150mi when towing anything substantial. I guess if this phantom "range extender" ever makes an appearance, that could help. But then no bed, so...

Overall I think this first pass at the Cybertruck is a pretty cool truck for early early adopters. But with a <300mi ideal range, <150mi range when towing and a >$100,000 price tag, the pool of people willing to buy it probably doesn't exceed 50K buyers total in the US. Price needs to come down at least 20-30% and range needs to go up at least 30-40% before anyone who "needs" a truck, buys a Cybertruck.

Perhaps, but perhaps not… Most people who buy pickup trucks don’t actually use them to do things that can’t be done as well (or better) by other vehicle types - they buy them for image, status, and wanting to appear macho. As someone mentioned earlier, actual job site work trucks are typically older light / small trucks - not full-size F-150 or larger types. Yes there are occasionally those, but the vast majority of actual work crews are using cheap, good (relatively) gas mileage workhorse vehicles that are easy to maintain and fix. They’re not using $60,000+ full-size trucks. Those are status symbols that seldom do more than hauling kids to / from football practice or a couple of bags of groceries (not that anyone can afford more than a couple of bags of groceries at a time anymore…) Once in a great while you’ll see one towing a camper or boat to the Colorado River, but otherwise they’re simply luxury SUVs for dudes.

So is there a market segment for the CT? Absolutely. Tapping into that desire to have the new, different-looking, radical, techno-geek toy will have a LOT of appeal.

I do agree with you that it will be many, many years (if ever) before you see CTs showing up on job sites with 2-3 guys in them and a bed full of tools or landscaping equipment though. But the same can be said of all those “luxo” pickups with their extended cabs, lift kits, big (expensive) wheel / tire kits, fancy lighting, etc. They’re toys to make guys look macho, far too expensive for working people to do real work out of on a day-to-day basis.

 

[sublimejackman]

As someone mentioned earlier, actual job site work trucks are typically older light / small trucks - not full-size F-150 or larger types. Yes there are occasionally those, but the vast majority of actual work crews are using cheap, good (relatively) gas mileage workhorse vehicles that are easy to maintain and fix. They’re not using $60,000+ full-size trucks. Those are status symbols that seldom do more than hauling kids to / from football practice or a couple of bags of groceries (not that anyone can afford more than a couple of bags of groceries at a time anymore…) Once in a great while you’ll see one towing a camper or boat to the Colorado River, but otherwise they’re simply luxury SUVs for dudes.

Yeah but that's the issue. That market isn't nearly as large as you would think. Just because we see those trucks fairly often, doesn't mean those are the ones the masses are buying. We remember them, because they are noteworthy. Also, there are tons and tons of six-figure blue collar professionals who NEED a truck. Welders, engineers, project managers, etc. A lottta farmers make six figures and own $90,000 or $100,000 trucks and the Cybertruck almost certainly doesn't meet their needs.

That and looking at luxury EVs, the Model S/X has only sold a combination of about 650K cars over the last decade in the US. And a lot of those buyers (like me) have been burned so badly by Tesla, they'll never go through owning a new one again.

This isn't to mention the price, like if you wanted to buy a Cybertruck today, you're either putting a massive five figure payment down or your car payment is $1800-$2400/month or both! Then, if you can afford one and you want to take your boat to the beach, you can only drive about two hours before needing to supercharge for 45min. The one glimmer here is that the resale value will be high for the next 18months.

I just don't see a six figure toy, that really doesn't bring that much to the table, selling hundreds of thousands of units in the next 3 or 4 years.

But that all may be moot, as it will be a year (probably years) before Tesla has the capacity to make more than a few dozen Cybertrucks a day. And maybe that's all the capacity they'll ever need...

 

[T3SLAROD]

Perhaps, but perhaps not… Most people who buy pickup trucks don’t actually use them to do things that can’t be done as well (or better) by other vehicle types - they buy them for image, status, and wanting to appear macho. As someone mentioned earlier, actual job site work trucks are typically older light / small trucks - not full-size F-150 or larger types. Yes there are occasionally those, but the vast majority of actual work crews are using cheap, good (relatively) gas mileage workhorse vehicles that are easy to maintain and fix. They’re not using $60,000+ full-size trucks. Those are status symbols that seldom do more than hauling kids to / from football practice or a couple of bags of groceries (not that anyone can afford more than a couple of bags of groceries at a time anymore…) Once in a great while you’ll see one towing a camper or boat to the Colorado River, but otherwise they’re simply luxury SUVs for dudes.

So is there a market segment for the CT? Absolutely. Tapping into that desire to have the new, different-looking, radical, techno-geek toy will have a LOT of appeal.

I do agree with you that it will be many, many years (if ever) before you see CTs showing up on job sites with 2-3 guys in them and a bed full of tools or landscaping equipment though. But the same can be said of all those “luxo” pickups with their extended cabs, lift kits, big (expensive) wheel / tire kits, fancy lighting, etc. They’re toys to make guys look macho, far too expensive for working people to do real work out of on a day-to-day basis.

“Luxo” pickups, you mean the $30-45k STX, RST, or Rebel?

Nah, there’s only one poser “Luxo” and that’s the $120k CT.

I’ve never heard of a Truck being a “Status symbol” , a truck?? Really??

Trucks are great family haulers and I’m not sure why anyone is upset if someone with a Truck isn’t doing “Truck things” 24/7.

There are people who want Trucks to fit in but can’t drive Trucks due to the driving dynamics, which is why car based Trucks like the Ridgeline and CT exist. Basically poser Trucks.

 

[sublimejackman]

I don't have a special thing about Naperville.

Naperville is far from me.
Getting to Naperville requires complicated local and expressway travel.
Getting to Naperville requires roundabout navigation and just about every other challenge I know about.
Lastly - I like to compare software systems using the same route.
I go to the town of Naperville a lot.

I hear Naperville is beautiful

 

[sublimejackman]

“Luxo” pickups, you mean the $30-45k STX, RST, or Rebel?

Nah, there’s only one poser “Luxo” and that’s the $120k CT.

I’ve never heard of a Truck being a “Status symbol” , a truck?? Really??

Trucks are great family haulers and I’m not sure why anyone is upset if someone with a Truck isn’t doing “Truck things” 24/7.

There are people who want Trucks to fit in but can’t drive Trucks due to the driving dynamics, which is why car based Trucks like the Ridgeline and CT exist. Basically poser Trucks.

There are *some* people who buy a $90K Ram 3500 and rarely, if ever, really use it as a truck. But it's not nearly as many people @TarmacSurfer would lead us to believe. The super high end truck market is usually for six figure blue collar professionals, small business owners of blue collar companies and/or millionaires who buy a ranch in Montana/Texas.

This all isn't to mention that Cybertrucks are fundamentally incompatible with fleet sales, 20% of the total market for trucks in the US. This is an even larger portion of the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton US market.

The market for the Cybertruck "Foundation Series" is extremely limited. We're now seeing things like the custom "AT" tires they put on the Cybertruck don't really hold up to other AT tires. With a very hard compound and half the tread depth of other AT tires. These little games that Tesla plays also eats into potential buyers.

The market really isn't there for mass adoption until price comes signifigantly down AND range goes signifigantly up (on the same trim line). But also, Tesla may just never want to/will be able to make more than 50K or 60K Cybertrucks a year. In which case, production may never exceed demand.