Thanks. This is a good guidance and not hard to follow. The problem is not me doing it or not but general users no idea about these and the advertised power and timings are not correct then.
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What should my ideal charge percentage be?
- Thread starter Al Sherman
- Start date
If you do not want to reduce the degradation no one will force you to.
Just do whats comfortable for you.
I used 55% daily on my M3P, and I charged late.
That ment I had a warm battery when I drove from home so not that bad power.
If you have a Performance car and think the power suffer to much, just charge as you like and get your power you want.
Not willing to sacrifice power is a true legit reason not to use 55% daily.
(But then you need to accept the higher degradation also).
I had a M3P for 2.5 years and had very low degradation. If I would have had it longer, it would have been the fastest M3P 2021 as low SOC also preserves the battery from increased internal resistance, which in turn reduce the power.
I actually needed the range in winter time.
Going to my mother in law is 250km and earlier there was no fast chargers on that way (still really is not, need to go a otjer way, 300km to have fast chargers/SuC.
At winter with -25 to -35C the car would use quite much of the SOC from a 100% charge. We often do things after arrival so residual range at arrival is needed.
There is a difference between a ICE and an EV, you mostly do nit need to charge it full every day if you nit are going on a long drive.
Its more like the ATM, you probably do not withdraw everything you have on the account? Just about enough until the next ATM visit…
I missed the origin for that question.
Thanks for detailed response. The last question is about correlation between higher current (i.e. more power? ) and charging habits. In order to have the performance close to specs about 0-60 MPH acceleration, what do we need? and is it against longevity of the battery?
Dave EV hit right on the head. Super easy to do once you get in the swing of it. Just set it at 55% and forget it. It paid off for me in minimizing degradation. I am not using up my battery needlessly. I still have plenty of juice. Really no impact for me on a daily basis.
If I have to go somewhere and need to put more than 120 miles for the day, a quick stop at a supercharger gives me more than enough to get home. Almost always, I know when I am going to have to drive more. So no real difference in convenience between setting it at 55% or 80%. That would only get me another 60 miles on my S anyway. Maybe 70 on my 3.
If I have to go somewhere and need to put more than 120 miles for the day, a quick stop at a supercharger gives me more than enough to get home. Almost always, I know when I am going to have to drive more. So no real difference in convenience between setting it at 55% or 80%. That would only get me another 60 miles on my S anyway. Maybe 70 on my 3.
All Teslas' performance suffer as the SoC go down. For the most part, it isn't noticeable in the 0-60 sprint. It is measurable but not that noticeable for most people. I took friends in my 3 when at 100% and at 50%, they couldn't tell the difference. Might be about 0.2 seconds. It does drop off enough at about 20% to notice.
The Plaid is similar but so freaking fast to begin with. It can still run in the 9's for the 1/4 mile at a 40% charge. Still in the mid 2's for 0-60 at a fairly low SoC. If gunning for your best time slips, you'll want to be over 85%. On the street, almost nothing is going to pull my Plaid even at 30% charge.
So I just set both at 55% and leave it. I will notice the drop off the most if below 40% and once I get around triple digits. The 3 is more obvious than the Plaid but it tapers off more to begin with at high speeds. My ex boss has a C8 ZO6 Vette. I ran him at 40% SoC and still crushed his car. No prep for my car, no warm batter, no track mode and no Cheetah stance. Just pulled it out of the garage and ran away and hid from him at any speed. No muss, no fuss and one pissed off ex-boss.
For max Performance on the M3P (right?) with the 82 kWh Pana 2170L, we need quote high SOC and quite warm battery.
We would need 75% and 40C cell temp or so.
This is data from @eivissa:
So if you need absolute max power you need to either supercharge/fast charge or trick the batteey preconditioning by setting a drive to a SuC.
55% with warm battery do not loose very much but it is noticable.
40-45 % looses more and if the car was parked and the battery cooled down, its a clear difference.
Keep in mind that what @AAKEE says is accurate, any performance or long range version of a recent Tesla is still going to be very quick compared to most cars. My M3 LR w/boost is still sub 4 seconds 0-60 @ 50% SoC (with rollout). Or compared to the times you see in car mags, it is running under 3.8 seconds 0-60 at 50% SoC. Quick enough to knock off the occasional Hellcat or Vette I run across. If they got a perfect launch with good traction they'd beat me to 60 but that rarely happens on the street.
A 2021+ or newer MS LR is going to run about 3.4-3.5 all day long at the same 50% SoC and still run high 10's in the quarter at about 124 mph. So if performance is your jam, P model Teslas are plenty quick enough on the street even at low SoC's.
I could take my MS LR, after sitting all night and take it for a run on a 70F day and not do any pre heat, track mode, etc. It would still knock off 3.4-3.5 to 60 and about 10.9 in the quarter on a 50% SoC. The Plaid knocks off at least a second off both of those times (more off the 1/4) at the same SoC.
A 2021+ or newer MS LR is going to run about 3.4-3.5 all day long at the same 50% SoC and still run high 10's in the quarter at about 124 mph. So if performance is your jam, P model Teslas are plenty quick enough on the street even at low SoC's.
I could take my MS LR, after sitting all night and take it for a run on a 70F day and not do any pre heat, track mode, etc. It would still knock off 3.4-3.5 to 60 and about 10.9 in the quarter on a 50% SoC. The Plaid knocks off at least a second off both of those times (more off the 1/4) at the same SoC.
12Pack
Member
On the topic of age degradation, though, is there any data in actual Tesla cars? Fully accept the data from @AAKEE, but will that be different in a pack of >thousand batteries with BMS thermal and level management as opposed to individual cells?
The reason I ask is that data shows something like a 2-3% degradation difference in 10 months above 55% SOC at 25C, with a trend of less degradation at lower temps and over time.
Also, I note that in order to measure the charge, a DVA technique was used, then the same cells were recharged to SoC level and put back in storage and re-measured for the longer calendar points. This could add uncertainty to the data. A better technique would be to only measure each cell once only, with some kept unmeasured till the longer time had elapsed.
Hence, if the Tesla situation is being alleviated by the BMS, and colder temps, perhaps it’s not so much of an issue.
The reason I ask is that data shows something like a 2-3% degradation difference in 10 months above 55% SOC at 25C, with a trend of less degradation at lower temps and over time.
Also, I note that in order to measure the charge, a DVA technique was used, then the same cells were recharged to SoC level and put back in storage and re-measured for the longer calendar points. This could add uncertainty to the data. A better technique would be to only measure each cell once only, with some kept unmeasured till the longer time had elapsed.
Hence, if the Tesla situation is being alleviated by the BMS, and colder temps, perhaps it’s not so much of an issue.
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Yes!
Thats a good thing with the new Model S.
Engineered with 110 cells in series (110S) instead of 96, we have enough voltage after the voltage droop at load even with lower SOC.
(Motors still adapted to 96s / 403 Volt.)
Earlier Tesla used (still use on 3/Y) a 403V battery with the motors made for 400V (maybe for 370V to be exact).
As soon as the battery get lover SOC tge voltage reduces and the motor do not deliver full power.
For the Plaid this 110S makes it deliver juuuuuust about enough power at 55%
Well, yes.
To start with, the BMS can not do very much except from keeping the cells in balance when needed, cool or heat the battery during drives (which happens quite seldom). Other from that it can almost only sit there and watch the cells get old.
It (the BMS) do not have the authority to use a lot of energy to keep the pack cold in hot days (except for that, it would be very expensive).
It (still, the BMS) doesn’t even have the authority to decide what SOC to charge to.
It can only watch the owner deciding to charge to XY % whenever the owner wants to.
The cells age from calendar aging from [Time x SOC x Temperature]
Each three of these will set the pace, and no actions from the BMS can change it.
The fact that it is not lonely cells but in series of 96 and 46 in parallel (3/Y LR packs) do not change the situation for the respective cell.
The normal Tesla never actively heat the cells unless: below about freezing or ~3 degrees Celcius when starting a drive.
Preconditioning is about the same. Not much, just up to about 5C or so. About the same for home AC charging, the battery is heated to about 7-10C if it is colder.
Heating is also done before / during supercharging.
For normal driving the battery heats itself and also is heated by the motors waste heat.
When parked, not driving the battery will not be heated/cooled.
As we drive in average maybe < 1 hour each day and charge 1-4 hours, about 20 hours each day is not heated or cooled.
Well, I had done a lot of research reading research reports before I got my M3P, almost 3 years ago.
I did calculate how the degradation would be for my car. I did see slightly less degradation than my calc’s told me.
After having had the car for almost 1 year, I could adjust the calculation because my logs showed me the average cell temp was a bit lower than my initial estimation.
After this adjustment, the calculation and the actual degradation followed very precisely for the rest of the time I had the car. ( Initially I planned to stay with it for quite long, as I usually do but I suddenly had the opportunity to get a M S Plaid and that overtook the idea to proof my case with the M3P low degradation. I tried to conact the new owner, but no joy so far. He doesnt seem to even return messages).
I have constructed formulas for calculating the capacity of Teslas with NCA batteries and it so far match the cars quite well.
The indatas are the most uncertain points, but still mostly really good matches.
I have quite a batch of friends and ex collegues that have model 3s and Ys.
Most of them follow the low SOC line and all that do has low degradation. There is no exceptions from that.
I had 492 km range at the last full charge, and the average for that car M3P ’21 had about 460-465 km range at the same ODO.
For my new Model S Plaid it is a bit early after 4 months, but looking good so far.
The calendar aging reduces with the square root of time.
Reducing the calendar aging by half, means you will have the half degradation after one and five years as well.
No, it do not add uncertainty.
You charge snd discharge your car almost any day, so that is not an issue.
They store the battery at tge specified SOC, then cycled it a few times to ”wake it up” and then they measure the capacity, after that they put them back to the storage SOC.
There is some tests that check for the difference by having some extra ”untouched cells” that I have read.
I also did the same with some of my cells, I did skip the ”two months checkup” on a few of them, and at the next checkup there was no difference between the ones that had the checkup and the ones that didnt.
Picked up the MSP earlier today ...
I'm hesitant to ask this for fear of being hit super hard with spreadsheets and math ...
Can someone explain to me BRIEFLY what the the difference between 27-32A means in my app, which I one I want, and why?
Why am I given a choice, what am I optimizing for, what is the compromise of choosing one number over the other?
Again, I cannot emphasize brevity enough.
I'm hesitant to ask this for fear of being hit super hard with spreadsheets and math ...
Can someone explain to me BRIEFLY what the the difference between 27-32A means in my app, which I one I want, and why?
Why am I given a choice, what am I optimizing for, what is the compromise of choosing one number over the other?
Again, I cannot emphasize brevity enough.
How fast do you want to add electricity to your battery? Inversely, how much time can you allow for the battery to charge? You can dial in more or fewer amps, thereby increasing or decreasing the rate you add charge to your car. DOES NOT APPLY TO SUPERCHARGERSPicked up the MSP earlier today ...
I'm hesitant to ask this for fear of being hit super hard with spreadsheets and math ...
Can someone explain to me BRIEFLY what the the difference between 27-32A means in my app, which I one I want, and why?
Why am I given a choice, what am I optimizing for, what is the compromise of choosing one number over the other?
Again, I cannot emphasize brevity enough.
No longer brief, but you asked more questions. Your household electric supply panel has a certain max # of amps it can provide simultaneously, so perhaps you might choose to decrease your amps while a bunch of other things are running so you don't over-tax your electric system. Also, the higher the amps the hotter everything gets, so maybe you might choose to decrease the amps when its 110F outside / 130F in your garage and speed it up (higher amps) when its 70F. Overall lower amps takes longer but everything else is "safer" although there's a negligible difference under most circumstances, if your house was wired correctly. BTW there is controversy whether there is a such thing as too few amps, maybe might harm battery to add electricity very slowly. I don't think anyone truly knows
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I think my addendum answers this question (you responded prior to my addendum)
These days I think you can set the app to finish charging at a certain time, but I never figured that out so most of the time I just dial down the amps so my car finishes charging in the morning right before I leave. That way the battery is warmed up already before I drive. I don't need a full "precondition" where you warm up the cabin as I don't mind sitting in the car when its a little chilly, I just want full regen while driving around. If you live in a warm location this is a moot point though.
Also as others have mentioned, lower amps means less power, less heat, less chance of something melting. Almost certain my wiring is fine, but there's no harm charging 1/3rd slower. In the one and a million chance that I suddenly have to drive 320 miles at two AM out of the blue with zero notice, I'll take my old Subaru.
Quick Q ...
It's 7pm and the car is already charged to 80% which is the default limit.
Should I still leave it plugged in overnight even though it's as charged as it will be or disconnect it?
Does it make a difference wither way?
It's 7pm and the car is already charged to 80% which is the default limit.
Should I still leave it plugged in overnight even though it's as charged as it will be or disconnect it?
Does it make a difference wither way?
I am not battery expert like people in this thread but it won't. It might lose a few miles at most.
You might set the departure time next time so it would be charged accordingly and also would heat the battery for optimal performance.
zoomer0056
Active Member
This has been talked about a lot, read through some of these.
A side note, if you have some question that could have been discussed, do a search. Chances are you will find more than you want. Still, no problem asking, you'll get your answer either way.
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Do i have to keep it plugged in everyday?
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Leave it plugged in all the time. If you don't need the range, charge it to 50-55% to minimize battery degradation. Don't run it below about 20%. Keep the discharge cycles low such as charge from 40% back to 50% if you can rather than waiting for it to get to 20% and then back to 50%.
So I just set it at 50% for my charge all the time and forget it. I up it if I know I'll drive 80 miles or more or if it is going to be close to freezing out.
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