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Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Great idea! Looking at this, wonder how much lobbying power Grumman has to prevent that from happening?!
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Which direction should Tesla go as a company?
- Thread starter dsm363
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Great idea! Looking at this, wonder how much lobbying power Grumman has to prevent that from happening?!
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Hi Kevin,
The Tesla brand wouldn't be worth much if they didn't place their technology in compelling vehicles. First they demonstrated that they could build a compelling niche vehicle, and it was this demonstration that enabled Tesla to eventually sell their technology to third parties. I doubt they could have just sold technology to Toyota and Daimler without first building cars.
Hopefully their management will be smart enough to examine the mass market car incrementally and determine whether or not they can build a car that will compete in this admittedly more competitve market. If they decide that they can't complete, there's nothing wrong with continuing to remain in a niche market while selling their technology to third parties. The trick is to not get in so deep into determing mass market feasibility that it sinks the company, before they can pivot back to focus exclusively on niche markets.
Larry
Sorry but I don't understand this point of view at all. The major auto manufacturers have shown no interest in making EVs in the class of the Model S. Nissan is the only mainstream automaker serious about BEVs, and they neither need Tesla's technology, nor have they shown any hint that they want to make something with more than 100 miles range. Toyota is not making a serious attempt with the Rav4 EV, they are producing an insignificant number of compliance cars. Daimler does not seem to be much different.
You can't sell something to someone who doesn't want to buy.
If Tesla had tried to operate on the business model of just selling technology to the other major automakers I think they would be near dead now.
I agree with richkae, that other car makers are not interested in pushing EVs the way Tesla is, and that attempting to bring about an EV revolution from backstage by offering technology to companies that have little interest in it, is doomed to fail.
Kevin: Most of the folks on this board seem interested in suggesting things that Tesla should do. You seem highly invested in telling Tesla what they should not do: "Don't build cars for ordinary folks; leave that to the big boys." Elon wants Tesla to become one of the big boys, and that won't happen as merely a technology supplier or even a parts manufacturer. Tesla has shown a willingness to supply technology and drive trains. It showed a willingness to build a performance sports car. I don't doubt that when the time comes, Tesla will build an even faster sports car, or that they will continue to supply drive trains in the numbers other auto makers are willing to buy. But when you say that Tesla should not be a major supplier of cars, you're arguing against the fundamental purpose of the company as conceived by its founders.
Kevin: Most of the folks on this board seem interested in suggesting things that Tesla should do. You seem highly invested in telling Tesla what they should not do: "Don't build cars for ordinary folks; leave that to the big boys." Elon wants Tesla to become one of the big boys, and that won't happen as merely a technology supplier or even a parts manufacturer. Tesla has shown a willingness to supply technology and drive trains. It showed a willingness to build a performance sports car. I don't doubt that when the time comes, Tesla will build an even faster sports car, or that they will continue to supply drive trains in the numbers other auto makers are willing to buy. But when you say that Tesla should not be a major supplier of cars, you're arguing against the fundamental purpose of the company as conceived by its founders.
You could say the same about Lotus, but because they make those cars it gives them the engineering knowledge and credibility they need.
IMHO it's a perfectly reasonable strategy. If they stay a niche player they won't be serious competition for the big players, and they can sell lots of powertrains and technology. If they become successful in a big way then yes they'll be competing, but it's not like the major automakers don't cooperate and compete at the same time. They're often selling technology and components to each other. Toyota licensed their older hybrid technology, for example, while keeping the latest stuff for themselves. That sort of stuff goes on all the time. I suspect Tesla will maintain similar relationships with nominally competing companies (e.g. Toyota and Daimler).
The Model S could be thought of as a massive test-bed for their technology. How interested would other companies be in their technology if it didn't have much real world testing? The Model S will prove their technology works and that it is safe for other car companies to use.
Complete and utter rubbish.... Renault have three BEV in full production, another released this year, and several more next. I was at a SMMT meeting yesterday where the French delegation presented figures that clearly show the Twizy is the fastest selling BEV ever.
What you fail to understand is that companies like Renault are already selling BEV in volume. This year the French Post Office (La Poste) will have 5000 Kangoo vans on the road and another 5000 will join them next year. Large orders will also be announced for other public and private sector organisations as France makes a determined effort to become the world leader in BEV deployment.
A key part of the french strategy is to design cars that are grid friendly which is why the ZOE has three phase fast charging. Within a couple of years millions of Type 2 43kW Charging Stations will be available throughout France and Western Europe and IMO Type 2 could easily become the first pan-european electrical connector.
The Renault strategy is to build cars that are affordable by the majority of European car owners and to make them usable by having low cost fast charge everywhere.
If you look at my first post you will find it says "I hope to have a ZOE because it will be a practical run-around with fast charging everywhere (3 Phase AC) and a Furtive-eGT (probably in my dreams) because that's the car Tesla should have made" and I was voicing the view that I wish Tesla had followed a different path. As I have said before, this is a widely held view both inside and outside Tesla. Obviously, Tesla didn't go down this path and so this discussion is completely academic.
Elon may want Tesla to become one of the big boys but we will have to wait and see whether that happens.... remember, it's very easy to spend a great deal of cash... the trick is to turn that into a sustainable business.
If it's at ~20kW then it does not "largely address that concern" because the ZOE and many future European cars will use 43kW and simply be more practical for many.
We probably don't want to turn this into a 3 Phase discussion.
None of those brands are here in the USA. Tesla's home. Tesla's primary market. IMO the original opinion (which I shared) still stands. A French company selling cars that not only won't see the light of day on these shores, but likely wouldn't be bought even if they were is not going to do a thing to sway the big manufacturers here to change their tune.
Might as well, it's already sort of a European vs American desires discussion.
so you think that Tesla should focus on the US market? and that will make them a global brand?
Kevin, I expect more from you than trying to win a debate by putting words into the mouth of someone that disagrees with you. I fully believe that you didn't for a second consider that to be what I was implying. In case you did though, no, that's not at all what I'm saying. The point was made that Tesla can not sell their technology to the big corporations because they, so far, seem uninterested in it. You countered with a manufacturer who we all know and appreciate is going all-out with BEVs, but has no presence here in the states which is Tesla's home market, and the home of the big 3.
Other manufacturers who sell here aside from the big 3 seem similarly uninterested in BEVs -- Audi/VW cancelling many, BMW seems to be inching there, Toyota seems to want to do the bare minimum as does Mercedes. Nothing from Kia/Hyundai or Honda/Lexus. Those guys are worldwide players. Sure Renault is doing their thing with BEVs, but how does that help Tesla when they don't sell cars in Tesla's primary market and, more importantly, are going it alone with their own tech? Who does Tesla sell to in enough volume to make a business of it?
My conclusion from that is that they are doing the right thing to stay afloat. As mentioned, they are indeed selling to companies who want it (Toyota/Daimler), but so far (that we know of), the deals have been relatively small, and even then, I doubt they would have gotten those customers without building cars to showcase their technology.
Again, I get that for Europe, the Model S is huge and it might lack the charging standard you prefer (we don't know that for sure), but that's not enough to say that Tesla should have stuck to making sportscars and left the EVs to the "other guys". Plus, the Roadster might not end up having the charging you want anyway
ok, understood, but that's how I read your comments.... maybe british, american english thing...
that's fine, I'm not waiting for Tesla to revisit the Roadster, I'm building my own 3 Phase PEM so that I can tour Europe with easePlus, the Roadster might not end up having the charging you want anyway
Kevin: I forgot, do you have a Roadster? Couldn't remember if you did or not.
I agree with AnOutsider. I understand the Model S is big but the US is their primary market as was said. There are still people in Europe (maybe even Americans living over there) that prefer a larger car. The main reason I understand Europeans prefer smaller cars is fuel costs (and roads are narrower in some places). The fuel cost is less of a concern with the Model S. I don't think your plan for Tesla to stick to powertrain sales and supercars/Roadsters would do much to further EVs to a wider audience but you disagree I understand.
I agree with AnOutsider. I understand the Model S is big but the US is their primary market as was said. There are still people in Europe (maybe even Americans living over there) that prefer a larger car. The main reason I understand Europeans prefer smaller cars is fuel costs (and roads are narrower in some places). The fuel cost is less of a concern with the Model S. I don't think your plan for Tesla to stick to powertrain sales and supercars/Roadsters would do much to further EVs to a wider audience but you disagree I understand.
That's right. Wow, I'm only at 12,000 miles in 18 months. Maybe if Tesla upgrades the battery pack/Liquid cooled PEM as a paid upgrade for the Roadster, they'll address the Europen charging situation as well as they seem to be doing with the Model S.
I think Tesla is headed in the right direction. Today is a big day but time will tell.
NigelM
Recovering Member
How quickly we forget.....Tesla-End-to-End-John-O-Groats-to-Lands-EndAdd to that parking (yes, European parking spaces are smaller than U.S. ones), congestion (ever driven around L'Arc du Triomphe, central London or just about any big city in Europe?), horribly tight turns in tiny villages, single width but two-way country roads in England, I could go on....
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