If you go back to the very first posting in this topic (back in 2007), you will see that the C-XF was one of the designs I thought made sense to use as inspiration for the Model S. (Well, I guess I started it with a Fisker design, but that didn't work out so well).
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sedan teaser
Hello Tesla enthousiasts
Allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a Dutch guy interested in EV's and have been following tesla motors for at least 3 years now. During those 3 years I came to know quite a bit about batteries, efficiency of EV''s etc. In October last year at the Paris motor show I actually got the chance to ride a couple of fast laps around the parking lot with mr. Rochefort. I expected the car to be fast, but the acceleration blew me away. After about 5 minutes I actually got out with a headache! Awesome experience that made my trip to Paris completely worthwhile.
I attached a foto of me smiling in the roadster during a fast corner.
Saturday I tried to post a comment on the teslamotors blog, and it seems it didn't make it trough moderation...So i thought why not post it here.
It's a bit of speculation based on educated guesses and some simple math.
Here it is:
Measured the car up in ms paint, by guessing the shoe of the man in the picture to be about 30 cm. the amount of pixels covering the length of the shoe is 50. 30 divided by 50 means 0.6 cm per pixel. You can measure the pixels by simply drawing a line and the length of that line (in pixels) appears in the right bottom of your screen. Stuff you do when you get bored at work
I came up with the following sizes, and was surprised that it seems to be a rather small car. Which is a good thing in terms of efficiency and would allow the car to travel further on fewer batteries. Better yet, if the drag coefficient (Cd) is around 0.26 (which is completely plausible) the small surface area of the car means that the sedan will have about the same amount of aero drag as the roadster! The sedan's relatively small size would also keep the weight down considerably. And with the batteries (same type as roadster 18650) positioned in the floor of the car (a bit of intel acquired at the paris motorshow) the resulting excellent weight distribution and centre of gravity mean the handling is going to be superb. Battery technology improvements mean that the amount of batteries used is going to be less then in the roadster. probably around 6000 cells providing 62.5 kW when using 3.6 volt 2.9 ah cells. (these cells have been available since 2008 from Panasonic, an even more energy dense version of these cells will be found in laptops in the very near future and will provide 3.6 volts 3.6 ah, meaning a total amount of 12.96 watts per cel. Would be nice to see those cells used in 2011, plausible since by then these cells would have dropped in price considerably.) This would be enough to get a 240+ mile range. I expect the weight to be around 3100 lbs / <1400 kg making the sedan a very efficient chic électrique indeed!
Sizes:
19" Wheels
400 cm long
127 cm high
260 cm wheelbase
178 cm wide (guestimation)
This results in a frontal surface of around:
1.27 x 1.78 x 0.85 (standard conversion factor) = about 1.90 square meters.
Combined with a guessed Cd of 0.26 this results in a Cd x A of 0.50
About the same as the roadster's
Well, enough speculation for today!
Greets from Holland
the Dutch guy
Hello Tesla enthousiasts
Allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a Dutch guy interested in EV's and have been following tesla motors for at least 3 years now. During those 3 years I came to know quite a bit about batteries, efficiency of EV''s etc. In October last year at the Paris motor show I actually got the chance to ride a couple of fast laps around the parking lot with mr. Rochefort. I expected the car to be fast, but the acceleration blew me away. After about 5 minutes I actually got out with a headache! Awesome experience that made my trip to Paris completely worthwhile.
I attached a foto of me smiling in the roadster during a fast corner.
Saturday I tried to post a comment on the teslamotors blog, and it seems it didn't make it trough moderation...So i thought why not post it here.
It's a bit of speculation based on educated guesses and some simple math.
Here it is:
Measured the car up in ms paint, by guessing the shoe of the man in the picture to be about 30 cm. the amount of pixels covering the length of the shoe is 50. 30 divided by 50 means 0.6 cm per pixel. You can measure the pixels by simply drawing a line and the length of that line (in pixels) appears in the right bottom of your screen. Stuff you do when you get bored at work
I came up with the following sizes, and was surprised that it seems to be a rather small car. Which is a good thing in terms of efficiency and would allow the car to travel further on fewer batteries. Better yet, if the drag coefficient (Cd) is around 0.26 (which is completely plausible) the small surface area of the car means that the sedan will have about the same amount of aero drag as the roadster! The sedan's relatively small size would also keep the weight down considerably. And with the batteries (same type as roadster 18650) positioned in the floor of the car (a bit of intel acquired at the paris motorshow) the resulting excellent weight distribution and centre of gravity mean the handling is going to be superb. Battery technology improvements mean that the amount of batteries used is going to be less then in the roadster. probably around 6000 cells providing 62.5 kW when using 3.6 volt 2.9 ah cells. (these cells have been available since 2008 from Panasonic, an even more energy dense version of these cells will be found in laptops in the very near future and will provide 3.6 volts 3.6 ah, meaning a total amount of 12.96 watts per cel. Would be nice to see those cells used in 2011, plausible since by then these cells would have dropped in price considerably.) This would be enough to get a 240+ mile range. I expect the weight to be around 3100 lbs / <1400 kg making the sedan a very efficient chic électrique indeed!
Sizes:
19" Wheels
400 cm long
127 cm high
260 cm wheelbase
178 cm wide (guestimation)
This results in a frontal surface of around:
1.27 x 1.78 x 0.85 (standard conversion factor) = about 1.90 square meters.
Combined with a guessed Cd of 0.26 this results in a Cd x A of 0.50
About the same as the roadster's
Well, enough speculation for today!
Greets from Holland
the Dutch guy
Attachments
Rampage,
It has been said by Elon in the past that this is a 5 seater that can seat 7 in a pinch so demanding that it is NOT a Staion wagon type vehicle is not really out of the question. And it has been said that it is VERY practical and it has been said that it IS a HATCHBACK. And it has been said that it looks like a Aston Martin. I think it is a combo of an R/S class MB and a Aston Martin. But I think it is more like a hatch back than a Station Wagon. BUT there has to be room back there for at least 2 kids if not adults. We know it is some sort of 5 door car. I am not sure that you rant is entirely founded. A Staion wagon is not too far out of reality.
It has been said by Elon in the past that this is a 5 seater that can seat 7 in a pinch so demanding that it is NOT a Staion wagon type vehicle is not really out of the question. And it has been said that it is VERY practical and it has been said that it IS a HATCHBACK. And it has been said that it looks like a Aston Martin. I think it is a combo of an R/S class MB and a Aston Martin. But I think it is more like a hatch back than a Station Wagon. BUT there has to be room back there for at least 2 kids if not adults. We know it is some sort of 5 door car. I am not sure that you rant is entirely founded. A Staion wagon is not too far out of reality.
Dutch Guy,
It has been said by everyone that has seen the actual car that it is more the size of a 5 series or 7 series car so it is NOT small. We have been told it can seat 7 in a pinch and 5 comfortably. So again NOT small. But I like your ideas on the math. Maybe that guy has really big feet
It has been said by everyone that has seen the actual car that it is more the size of a 5 series or 7 series car so it is NOT small. We have been told it can seat 7 in a pinch and 5 comfortably. So again NOT small. But I like your ideas on the math. Maybe that guy has really big feet
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Seat 7 in a pinch? I must've missed that, can you provide a link please Kevin? That would normally some sort of wagon.
Dpeilow,
I distinctly remember Elon saying that but I will have to do some reasearch to see if I can find it.
TEG,
I looked at the BMW5 GT and I think it doesn't look too bad and is about the right size. Can you photoshop one of those on the front of the S ?? Thanks a million. I think that these drawing are fun to look at ....
I distinctly remember Elon saying that but I will have to do some reasearch to see if I can find it.
TEG,
I looked at the BMW5 GT and I think it doesn't look too bad and is about the right size. Can you photoshop one of those on the front of the S ?? Thanks a million. I think that these drawing are fun to look at ....
Same thread. Posted by Doug 10-17-2008.
Quoting Elon.
Venture Capitalist Steve Jervetson has seen the Model S design:
Quote:
The Model S is absolutely gorgeous by the way, and it has more people and luggage space than any sedan... Enabled by having batteries and motors all low down below the wheel line. And with a cool trunk option, it can carry 5 adults and 2 kids. Many Apple analogies come to mind regarding the HCI...
(HCI = human computer interface)
Quoting Elon.
Venture Capitalist Steve Jervetson has seen the Model S design:
Quote:
The Model S is absolutely gorgeous by the way, and it has more people and luggage space than any sedan... Enabled by having batteries and motors all low down below the wheel line. And with a cool trunk option, it can carry 5 adults and 2 kids. Many Apple analogies come to mind regarding the HCI...
(HCI = human computer interface)
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I read that quote before, but I kind of ignored it assuming it isn't that accurate. If what was said in that quote was true, a station wagon really isn't out of the question.
I was imagining that the Model S would follow the same coupe style sedans that are so popular recently. A station wagon is more practical but it's also a lot less sexy. And people with $60k+ to spend on a car usually goes for the sexy and not the practical.
Case in point: the CLS63 costs $10k more than the E63 Wagon while the two are basically equivalent, but the E63 is more practical and the CLS looks better. It seems here, in the US at least, station wagons aren't as popular as sedans and coupes.
Audi & BMW didn't even offer for sale in the US the station wagon versions of their performance sedans: the RS6 Avant and the M5 Touring respectively.
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graham
Active Member
My guess is that:
1) The aerodynamics will be better than the Roadster.
2) The weight will not be too terribly much more than the Roadster in the base model. The base model will have half the battery of the premium model, which I am expecting to mean about 500 lbs. so 3100-3500 lbs for the base model could be possible.
I guess you didn't look carefully enough as I had already done that one:
BMW GT / Model S merger;
(Note: This is NOT the actual model S - it is a cartoon blending of two vehicle pictures)
At the Town Hall Meeting, Elon said:
"It'll be a platform with the option of different 'Top Hats' from a Coupe to a delivery van."
In another recent quote, he said something like "you could use it to go to Home Depot", so is that a hint about a wagon?
Maybe Steve Jervetson saw a wagon version and the sneak peek is a second "coupe" version.
"It'll be a platform with the option of different 'Top Hats' from a Coupe to a delivery van."
In another recent quote, he said something like "you could use it to go to Home Depot", so is that a hint about a wagon?
Maybe Steve Jervetson saw a wagon version and the sneak peek is a second "coupe" version.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't particularly like the BMW GT, reminds me too much of the X6, kind-of SUV like. Definitely not the kind of design that will wow you at first glance.
About the weight thing, if the battery capacity is really cut down in half, then I think the weight will still be ~3750 at the least. Most of the coupe looking sedans weigh 4000lbs +.
The lowest weight I have seen for a large sedan is the XJ8, which is in the ~3750lb range and the XJ8 uses an all aluminum shell if I remember correctly (I imagine the Model S using similar type of weight saving construction from the previous statements about Model S). Replace the xj8's v8 motor (weighs ~500lbs judging by other jaguar v8s) with the battery (~500lbs if half the size of the roadster's) and you get around the same vehicle weight. You can possibly save some weight by the fact the Model S might be slightly smaller, but I estimate it'll be in the ~3750 range at best unless there are even more weight saving measures we haven't seen yet.
