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Who can catch Tesla ? They seem to be experiencing exponential growth…..

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While the future can be especially difficult to predict 🙂, my own guess is that the transition to EV dominance unfortunately will be slower that some here are predicting, and for reasons already given in my earlier post and by cwerdna.

One additional thing that I would note is that a quick transition is a bit add odds with the original point taken in this thread, which is that Tesla is way ahead of everyone else in mass production of EVs. While I largely agree with that point, the implications of it pose a problem with EV availability. Tesla simply is not going to be able to supply the world with most of its vehicles even under the most wildly optimistic expansion plans. Meanwhile

This transition is going to take a while. I would love to be proved wrong about that though. I personally would be all in favour of a very quick movement to EV dominance.
There are quite a few variables...for example...will European legislation speed up the demise of ice?...will we have a long recession?...and most importantly (I think) is this experiment that some car manufacturers are doing, putting an electric drivetrain in a ice car, if they think that is successful, they could switch all their ice production overnight
I’d argue we don’t need any more regulation!
Once companies understand that an EV is cheaper it’s game over for ice ! The finance department have a responsibility to make the most economic choice .
 
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The EV market is Tesla’s to lose, and they will lose it if they continue to deliver poor customer service.
As I've said before, there's precious little service to deliver because the car doesn't have a gas engine with its thousand moving parts and drippy oil, not to mention a gas tank that carries the equivalent explosive power of dozens of sticks of dynamite. Poor service is pretty much an opinion, and service varies from service center to service center. In the ten years I've owned Teslas I've only needed service ONCE, and compared to any gas car, that's amazing, but EVs just don't need service. If you mean, on the other hand, that they didn't come and hold your hand, that's another issue, or if you meant they didn't have a part when you wanted it, another matter again.

It's obvious that Tesla is NOT losing the EV market. They sell ten times more cars than Ford and GM combined. Why? Because they build a better car, have better batteries and don't waste their money on advertising, which is taken care of for free by thousands of happy owners.
 
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EV adoption, as Mengy tried so hard to explain to you, is not uncertain.



Have a look here at the most mature market , (Norway)

Ponder the chart.

Try and understand how, once adoption passes 5% , its accelerates very quickly ;


View attachment 833316
Who says that automatically once something passes 5% adoption, it accelerates quickly? That's not automatic. The United States is NOT Norway, not anywhere even close in terms of incentivizing and pushing drivers towards EVs. The world isn't. If Norway is on a scale of 0 to 100 in terms of pushing them, I'd put them at maybe 90 and the US at a 10 or 20. Some of the world is at 0.

And, you're making assumptions that there aren't constraints on manufacturing capacity and materials. You still haven't given an concrete answers to my questions. You really think that in the US where 14 to 17 million new automobiles are sold a year that in 5 years, everyone will want BEVs instead? Even if it were 51% (leaving 49% buying ICEVs), somehow all the EV makers are going to be able supply 7.1 million BEVs in a single year for the US alone in 5 years??? They also have to produce EVs for other markets.

As I said, hybrids (the kind you can't plug in) requires no habit change, no charging infrastructure, no installation of anything extra at home, no place to charge and has no range anxiety + they're available at many price points, equipment levels and levels of luxury.

12ft | from Jan 2022 says:
"U.S. sales of hybrid vehicle sales jumped 76% to 801,550 vehicles last year, accounting for 5% of U.S. light vehicle sales, according to data from analytics firm Wards Intelligence.

Sales of EVs also jumped 83% to 434,879, but represented a meager 3% of the market."

Electric vehicles and hybrids surpass 10% of U.S. light-duty vehicle sales (latest EIA report I could find on this) put non-plugin hybrids at 6.1% of 4Q 2021 US auto sales, EVs at 3.4% and PHEVs at 1.4%.

As I said, as certain interests (e.g. fossil fuel, climate change deniers, auto repair shops, etc.) feel that their business and revenues are threatened, they will push FUD like Electric Vehicles: Myths vs. Reality | Electric Vehicle Guide, like some of the same garbage that was parroted about hybrids. I've heard it all. When I had a Nissan 350Z, I remember one guy on my350z.com pushed FUD saying he wouldn't want to be in a hybrid because he'd be could electrocuted in a crash and first responders wouldn't want to rescue people due to high voltage (for their own safety). :rolleyes:

Go look at social media responses to any posts by places like Car and Driver, Autoblog, Jalopnik on Facebook or in comment fields when it comes to any EV stories. You'll have all sorts of EV haters and doubters chiming in + all sorts of excuses about why an EV isn't for them or won't work for them, why they aren't ready, etc.

As more and more EVs are around, we will keep hearing more stories about fires (e.g. from vehicle defects) and from and charging mishaps at home, esp. given how many people buy random cheapo no-name EVSEs from places like Amazon (I see it all the time), do a DIY install with no knowledge of National Electrical Code. I've seen people who do bad work or ask questions that clearly shows they don't know what they're doing. Some of it is here on TMC. The media will pick up on fires and scare people. They will echo and amplify this + the FUD.

As a former Bolt owner, I already went thru that w/Bolt parking bans (Bolt Parking Only), including at my work (long story) when only about 20 Bolts worldwide caught fire due to battery defects out of about 150K vehicles. (Yes, it's not good but the % is still lower than the % of vehicle fires that happen every year out of the entire US vehicle population.) Not surprisingly, a climate change denier group had something to say about it (Bolt Parking Only).

Look at the media attention when there's a Tesla fire. I wonder if the media will run with BMW USA Recalls i4, iX Models for Concerns Regarding High-Voltage Batteries.
 
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Isnt BYD having pretty explosive growth as well (perhaps even moreso than Tesla)? I remember reading about their BEV sales potentially matching/surpassing Tesla in the next year (surprising considering most of their current market is in China.) I think they offer some of their commercial vehicles in Norway, so I wonder if they'll expand abroad.

EDIT:
Found the article: Top All-Electric Car OEMs In Q2 2022: BYD Approaches Tesla

I honestly didn't know VW sold so many BEVs as well but I forgot they had more options in the non-US market.
 
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^^^
It's no surprise given how the Chinese govt has really pushed people towards "new energy vehicles".

China Pushes Drivers Toward Electric Vehicles out of Necessity has some examples.
"Shanghai started auctioning license plates in 1994 to control the fleet size in the congested megacity, which last year had 24.2 million residents and 3.59 million vehicles. The price for a gasoline-car permit hit a record 93,500 yuan in October — equivalent to the domestic sticker price of a Volkswagen AG Santana or Ford Motor Co. Escort. The local government has been handing out unlimited EV licenses for free since 2014."


As I said, when I last checked, China's annual EV + PHEV unit sales were about triple that of the US.

Re: VW, yeah, they don't sell many vehicles in the US via any of their Brands of the Volkswagen Group w/the main ones in the US being VW, Audi and Porsche, but even though I'm no fan of them, they are one of the world's largest automakers by volume (per Volkswagen Group achieves solid results in 2021 and drives forward its transformation to NEW AUTO, 8.6 million vehicles sold in 2021 and 11 million in 2019). And, yes a bunch of their BEVs don't exist in the US.
 
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I honestly didn't know VW sold so many BEVs as well but I forgot they had more options in the non-US market.
Besides my other comment about VW, I found 2021 (Full Year) Europe: Best-Selling Electric Car Models and Brands - Car Sales Statistics. We don't have the ID.3 nor VW Up here in the US. Skoda (part of VW group) Enyaq is related to the ID.4.

Stellantis AFAIK sells no BEVs in the US right now, but in that list they have two Puegots. We don't have a Fiat 500e in the US any more. The gen 1 was a CA compliance car.

Renault has the Zoe and Dacia Spring in that list.

I noticed 46K Niro EV and almost 43K Kona EV. I doubt that HyunKia has sold that much of either of these in the US.
 
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Gotta "love" your disagrees.

Per US: Kia EV Sales Reached New Record In 2021, 8,717 Niro EV were sold in the US in 2021.

US Kona EV sales for 2021 are unclear.

CWederna .. this is my last reply to you .

Basically; I think you have a LOLLY STICK, JAMMED, IN YOUR “VENDING MACHINE” OF THOUGHT.

I can’t believe you write the crap you do !

EV adoption, as Mengy tried so hard to explain to you, is not uncertain.



Have a look here at the most mature market , (Norway)

Ponder the chart.

Try and understand how, once adoption passes 5% , its accelerates very quickly ;


View attachment 833316
In researching something else, I discovered how TINY an auto market Norway compared to the US and even California.

Here's how many new automobiles were sold in 2021:
Norway: 176K (EVs made up 65 percent of car sales in Norway last year | Engadget)
California: 1.86 million (https://www.cncda.org/wp-content/uploads/California-Covering-2Q-22_FINAL.pdf from California New Car Dealers Association Releases Second Quarter Auto Outlook – California New Car Dealers Association)
US: 15 million
10 Takeaways from U.S. Auto Sales: 2021 - Cox Automotive Inc.

Per page 2 of https://www.cncda.org/wp-content/uploads/California-Covering-2Q-22_FINAL.pdf, more EV were sold in California in 2021 than all of Norway in 2021 despite being having only 9.5% share in CA.

So, sure Norway has had rapid adoption due to extreme policies and incentives already covered (and seems impossible in the US esp. in large parts of the US esp. where some residents believe that cheap gasoline is their God-given right) but the # of vehicles needed to be supplied to them is small (market of 176K cars per year) vs. 13 to 17 million per year. California's auto market by itself is 10x the size of Norway.
 
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Honestly, in this area, I rarely see any EVs aside from Teslas.. and I am seeing a lot of Teslas. Occasionally I see an Ioniq or a Ford MME, but only occasionally. I have not seen even one ID.4 yet and a friend who ordered one has been waiting for about 18 months without any sign of that the vehicle will soon arrive. Say what you want about Tesla’s vehicles (and I say that they are great) Tesla is at least delivering EVs in volume. Nobody else is, at least not around here.
 
i think i did see an ioniq here in denver too...come to think of it. A TON OD 3 AND Y HERE...more then s and x for sure now...I still dont like the model 3 look and would prefer the y but to me the y looks like a smaller x(as it was intended i guess) but i still think the s is the sportiest and classiest of them all.
 
I'm not clear how large the global automobile market is.
2021 (Full Year) International: Worldwide Car Sales - Car Sales Statistics mentions 58.1 million vehicles for 2021 for regions monitored by VDA (never heard of them before).
2022 and the global sales picture says
"GlobalData forecasts that the global light vehicle market in 2021 will total 79.9 million units, just 5.5% ahead of 2020 (75.7 million), with the chips crisis and resultant supply shortages this year contributing to a market around 4 million units below where underlying demand suggests it should have been. For context, the global light vehicle market exceeded 90 million units during the 2016-2018 period (slowing slightly in 2019).


The outlook for 2022 is for the global light vehicle market to grow to around 84 million, but supply and demand issues – as well as ongoing pandemic risks – point to a continuing fragility to the auto industry’s recovery next year. At 84 million units we’re still not quite back to pre-pandemic levels, though."
I got an answer to the above part. per page 27 of http://www.jama.or.jp/english/reports/docs/MIoJ2022_e.pdf, global motor vehicle production excluding motorcycles were these numbers:
2019: 92.183 million
2020: 77.711 million
2021: 80.145 million

http://www.jama.or.jp/english/reports/docs/MIoJ2021_e.pdf page 28 adds another data point:
2018: 96.869 million

At EV industry I posted some numbers about Japan. I posted a bit more info at Japanese EV market - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Hint/preview: In 2021 in Japan, new BEVs made up 0.5% out of 4.45 million new vehicles. Non-plugin hybrids made up about 32%. PHEVs were about 0.51%.

If you look at page 17 of http://www.jama.or.jp/english/reports/docs/MIoJ2022_e.pdf, new BEV sales hit their peak in Japan in 2018 at 26.5K units sold in a year. They have not returned to that record yet.
 
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Lastly : they seem to want to charge more than BMW, Porsche and MBZ at a fraction of the quality.
Performance wise Tesla is the leading BEV.
Range, acceleration, etc. Also some features better (like all around cameras)

BUT I do agree too many reports of some items and service being inferior.
They are losing their way, and Elon is entirely to blame. He started with the hyper partisan right wing nonsense and Twitter circus, and he will doom Tesla a few years from now, the way he is carrying on.
I also think Elon is being too distracted. He should take a couple of months off, or get a CEO of each of his divisions.
Elon would do best with designing things, doing technical work, not running the companies. Steve Jobs knew that.
 
Performance wise Tesla is the leading BEV.
Range, acceleration, etc. Also some features better (like all around cameras)

BUT I do agree too many reports of some items and service being inferior.

I also think Elon is being too distracted. He should take a couple of months off, or get a CEO of each of his divisions.
Elon would do best with designing things, doing technical work, not running the companies. Steve Jobs knew that.
This. Tesla is fortunate enough to be an industry leader, first in but once you're at the top, if you don't cover your basis, satisfy your current and future customers, it'll be easier for other companies to take those customers since the initial EV adoption is done and it's about refinement for said customers.
 
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I got an answer to the above part. per page 27 of http://www.jama.or.jp/english/reports/docs/MIoJ2022_e.pdf, global motor vehicle production excluding motorcycles were these numbers:
2019: 92.183 million
2020: 77.711 million
2021: 80.145 million

http://www.jama.or.jp/english/reports/docs/MIoJ2021_e.pdf page 28 adds another data point:
2018: 96.869 million

At EV industry I posted some numbers about Japan. I posted a bit more info at Japanese EV market - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Hint/preview: In 2021 in Japan, new BEVs made up 0.5% out of 4.45 million new vehicles. Non-plugin hybrids made up about 32%. PHEVs were about 0.51%.

If you look at page 17 of http://www.jama.or.jp/english/reports/docs/MIoJ2022_e.pdf, new BEV sales hit their peak in Japan in 2018 at 26.5K units sold in a year. They have not returned to that record yet.
From Honda N-Box was Japan's best-selling car in 2022 | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

Sales of electric vehicles exceeded 1 percent of all new passenger car sales for the first time.

Nissan's Sakura and Mitsubishi's eK X EVs, which share the same platform, racked up unit sales of 21,887 and 4,175 respectively.

Sales of the Nissan Leaf jumped 17 percent from the previous year to 12,732.