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Who Else Had ICE Ruined For Them?

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Without dealership Tesla has to adjust the price itself to follow the demand, which already made a lot of owners angry.

Yes, the big, bad corporation has been increasing production efficiency, lowering prices and accelerating the adoption of cleaner, more sustainable transport.

This makes people who love pollution, cancer, COPD and asthma very angry indeed! ;)
 
I'm glad Tesla broke away from the stealership business model. I don't know anyone who likes them. And the reason they did was entirely for cost efficiencies. Tesla's mission statement is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy and transport. When Tesla was founded, and when they released their first EV, the Roadster, EV's were much more expensive than comparable gas cars. The only reason Musk and team decided to start an EV company was that they understood the declining cost curve of batteries and solid-state motor controllers. It was only a matter of time before EV's were cost competitive and they wanted to be there ready to fulfil market demand in order to accelerate the transition. It's critical for our planet. And the best way to do this as soon as possible is to eliminate every possible inefficiency (so EV's could become cost-competitive ASAP).

Yes, a dealer network is inefficient. They borrow money to purchase the cars from the manufacturer then they let them sit out in the weather while they try to sell them. They hire car salespeople who are more concerned with the size of their sales commissions than your best interests, no one likes them. Then, to pay for the millions of dollars they have borrowed to create a huge lot (property taxes) full of metal, gas and oil, they try to sell you unnecessary and over-priced warranties, undercoating, paint protection, etc. Because they want to make a profit so the owner of the dealership can be the local big-whig and send his kids to an expensive business school where they can learn how to make as much money as possible on every sale. It's an out-dated business model that predates the Internet. By reducing the price of EV's, they can be adopted sooner by more people.



I sold my Mazda after getting my Stealth P3D. I had never done business with the local Mazda dealer (although it was part of the same family-owned dealership conglomerate that owns most of the dealerships in my region). The conglomerate "auto group" sells the vast majority of the cars in my area. But I thought I would give them a try because I have two cars, a truck and four motorcycles. I maintain my motorcycles myself and didn't really like the idea of servicing my cars and truck as well. I dropped my Mazda off for its second service at 15,000 miles (the first service was free, included in the sale of the new car) and asked them to perform the 15,000-mile service. I knew from reading the Owner's Manual this only included oil, oil filter and a few simple checks of things like the function of lights, seatbelts and brakes. The air filter wasn't even scheduled until 30,000 and we live in one of the least dusty areas of the country. I was about to leave when I thought to inquire about the cost. I was floored when he started to tell me all the things it needed and that it would be over $600! I told him I just wanted the factory recommended service performed. He started to berate me for not wanting to treat my car properly etc. but ended by telling me they could just do the minimum if that's all I wanted! It was still going to be $90 for an oil change and simple checks. I endured 5 minutes of him treating me like a terrible person before I got him to that point. How gullible to they think I am? I never went back again.

This kind of experience is not uncommon at car dealerships. My brother-in-law is part owner of a large Volvo dealership in another area and they would never do that scam. But the way they base the mechanics pay on their "efficiency" ensures a sub-optimal service. They get paid for the volume of work they are able to do and I've seen first hand how this is not in the customer's best interest. But this is common these days across most dealerships. And the salespeople are commissioned. The worse deal you get, the more they make. Nobody likes car salesmen. They might not be as bad as when they wore polyester suits but they still drip slime. Sure, there are some good salespeople but they are the exception, not the rule.

Even when you think you are getting good service and they kiss your butt all nice, you are still getting a bad value at most car dealerships. That's because the price of the car and the servicing has to cover their very high overhead. Tesla is constantly adding modern, new service centers and mobile service vans as their production grows so it's not clear why you yearn for the old, inefficient ways of doing things. Because the customer has to pay for all those inefficiencies, commissions and profits.

Makes sense. Most of the dealerships, especially here in Florida are horrible to deal with. They are trying to get you at every turn with crazy dealer fees and worthless add-ons. A typical dealer fee in Florida is $799 - $1,199.

I wonder if Tesla could strike a balance. Rather than have a traditional dealer networks, maybe Tesla Sales Centers instead with knowledgeable Tesla sales people. Basically what they do now with the service centers but build real sales centers with more space to stock cars and showrooms, etc. I know it will cost more money to have these buildings but I also wonder how much of the market they will lose out on if they stick to Internet based sales only.

It sure will be interesting to watch this market and see how these traditional dealerships survive since a large portion of their business is done via service. If you drive up to your local Honda dealer you will see a line around the building as car comes in for basic $60 oil changes and tire rotations. I am wonder if a lot of manufactures will follow Tesla with a direct sales model and mobile service offering.
 
That’s my same car, which also has the track package. Probably my favorite all around BMW that I’ve owned including a 2011 M3 Comp and 2013 M5. I think you’re right, I’ll get over the things quickly that had me locked into that brand.
Mine had track package too. I've tracked both the 340 and the P3D and the Tesla beats it hands down IMO. It's just a better car overall.
 
First post and just picked up my stealth performance last week and first EV experience. Ironically I was thinking the exact same thing. I came from a supercharged V8 470 HP Jaguar XF which really moves but still feels like a slug compared to my Tesla. Every time I have to get in an ICE car now, I felt like I was being snobby but it was a completely unenjoyable and annoying experience. Honestly my Tesla wasn’t that expensive compared to many cars on the road, other cars I’ve owned or aspired to purchase so it’s really not a money or status thing. It’s simply that I feel I’m in an outdated piece of technology.

The best comparison I can think of is when I used to own a blackberry phone and made the jump to an iPhone. I liked my blackberry just fine when I had it but after even a day with my new iPhone, whenever I had to pick up that old blackberry it was a depressing experience. Slow, cumbersome, inefficient, not well thought out, etc. Tesla is just a new and refreshing way to experience the road and one that you don’t even understand as something you will want/need until you’ve actually sat in that drivers seat.
 
First post and just picked up my stealth performance last week and first EV experience. Ironically I was thinking the exact same thing. I came from a supercharged V8 470 HP Jaguar XF which really moves but still feels like a slug compared to my Tesla.

Agreed. It is all about how the electric motors delivers power. For example, look at the dyno charts of the M3P and M3D, notice the broad instant torque curve. The M3P delivers almost 500lb ft of torque to the wheels from go. This is also good info folks trying to understand the what the power difference between an M3P and M3D looks like on paper.

M3 Dyno.png


Now look at the dyno chart of a couple Mustangs GT 350s and Camaro Z28 with an LS7 (7.0L V8). The Chevy motors are known for producing the best off idle torque in the industry but even a big naturally aspirated 7.0L with 505hp is still down 100lb ft of torque at 2000 rpm vs. an M3P. The flat plane crank Ford motors like to rev and make power up top. They are not as torquey but they do sound amazing revving out to 8200rpm.

2015-Chevy-Camaro-Z28-vs-Shelby-GT350-dyno-plot.jpg


The point is that is the Teslas feel faster even if you are coming from a performance car because of the way the power is delivered. All that torque down low is what gets you moving and it makes the car feel a lot lighter than it is. Combine that with the fact that you no longer need to wait on a transmission to shift and it makes for instant throttle response. If you are coming from a 4 cylinder economy car or something and have never experienced real torque these Model 3s are going to feel like rockets, even the slow SR+ models. :)
 
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If you are coming from a 4 cylinder economy car or something and have never experienced real torque these Model 3s are going to feel like rockets, even the slow SR+ models. :)

Agreed. But the "slow SR+ Model 3" is only slow compared to other more expensive Teslas. Compared to the average car out there, even the SR+ Model 3 is a very fast car. It's faster than your typical muscle car from the 1960s when muscle cars ruled.
 
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Agreed. But the "slow SR+ Model 3" is only slow compared to other more expensive Teslas. Compared to the average car out there, even the SR+ Model 3 is a very fast car. It's faster than your typical muscle car from the 1960s when muscle cars ruled.
Hell it's faster than a Mercedes C63s around town. On the highway it'll get murdered but considering the lack of gears and difference in price that's pretty forgivable.
 
Well I've had my Model 3 a few months now, and despite the flaws with the "customer service" side of things, the driving dynamics are amazing. I went back to driving a Mercedes C63s the other day and I was blown away. The car felt... slow, sloppy, and almost annoying to drive. I used to work for Mercedes and anyone who knows cars knows the 63 AMGs are no slouches. But after driving the Tesla exclusively for a few weeks I can't enjoy the twin turbo V8 (besides the sound, which is still amazing). Considering the price I paid for the Model 3 is half the Mercedes, I feel like an idiot for not buying the Tesla sooner. Have any other car guys had gasoline cars ruined for them? I'm almost sad that I can't really enjoy driving my ICE cars anymore!
As I write this I am sitting in a body shop waiting room after being side swiped. I am dreading the rental that is going to be part of this incident. I had a rental once before for a week and absolutely hatred it. Filled with knobs and switches covered with chrome. Drove like a truck. I also came to appreciate the touch screen as less of a distraction than the standard dashboard. Some instruments coverage by the steering wheel. The touch screen only takes a quick glance to see all the necessary info displayed in large easy to see print. I'll never drive an ICE machine again.
 
The point is that is the Teslas feel faster even if you are coming from a performance car because of the way the power is delivered. All that torque down low is what gets you moving and it makes the car feel a lot lighter than it is. Combine that with the fact that you no longer need to wait on a transmission to shift and it makes for instant throttle response.

I did the 2-day Porsche Track Experience in Birmingham a few weeks ago. This is the one where you drive a variety of 911 and 718 performance cars on a race track. My middle of the road MX 100D felt quicker than every car I drove there. Even with the PDK transmission, things were not instant. Sure a 911 Carrera GTS w/PDK is more than 1 second faster to 60 than my MX, but my car *feels* quicker because it reacts immediately to the accelerator.
 
I did the 2-day Porsche Track Experience in Birmingham a few weeks ago. This is the one where you drive a variety of 911 and 718 performance cars on a race track. My middle of the road MX 100D felt quicker than every car I drove there. Even with the PDK transmission, things were not instant. Sure a 911 Carrera GTS w/PDK is more than 1 second faster to 60 than my MX, but my car *feels* quicker because it reacts immediately to the accelerator.

It is amazing what instant torque will do. I was always a fan of Chevy V8s for that reason, they would generate a lot of torque down low in the rpm range. My M3P feels quite a bit quicker than prior C7 Corvette and Zl1 Camaro (650hp/650tq). It is amazing that they are comparable.
 
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Well I've had my Model 3 a few months now, and despite the flaws with the "customer service" side of things, the driving dynamics are amazing. I went back to driving a Mercedes C63s the other day and I was blown away. The car felt... slow, sloppy, and almost annoying to drive. I used to work for Mercedes and anyone who knows cars knows the 63 AMGs are no slouches. But after driving the Tesla exclusively for a few weeks I can't enjoy the twin turbo V8 (besides the sound, which is still amazing). Considering the price I paid for the Model 3 is half the Mercedes, I feel like an idiot for not buying the Tesla sooner. Have any other car guys had gasoline cars ruined for them? I'm almost sad that I can't really enjoy driving my ICE cars anymore!

Here's what I posted a while back on this - and I feel your pain! :

I just got into my heavily modified Lexus IS350 (coilovers, forged wheels, Michelin SS, exhaust, intake, etc) after having driven only the Tesla Model 3 Performance for the first several months after getting it. It was a rude shock - well, several rude shocks to be precise: 1) the ~325HP 3500lbs IS350 felt like a slug, sort of ooooozing forward at max throttle, making a God-awful racket. 4.9 secs to 60 felt like an eternity!; 2) the coilover setup (set 2/3rds of way toward full hard) road like a frikin' cement truck, hammering me with every pavement ripple, crack and divot; 3) bending it into my favorite local entrance ramp, the rock hard track suspension did corner OK, almost as responsive as the Model 3 stock setup, but way stiffer and more rigid feeling - probably very close to the lateral G of the M3, but without the ease of rotation, and with distinctly more sensation of mass upfront (which there was!); 4) getting onto the highway, the ride was like being in some kind of go cart with a lots of tire, wind, road, and lots of continuous racket from the engine - when was this car so frikin' noisy? 5) tried to slow down getting off at the next exit - WTF happened to the regen??? - I take my foot off the pedal and it just keeps going, and going and going, way past where I wanted to position it!??!? 6) Last but not least the premium sound system sounded HORRIBLE! What happened to that?

I got out thinking - what the bleep has happened to my previously loved ICE Sports Sedan - it's become a total POS!!!
 
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I saw a guy on YouTube who equated ICE cars to manual transmissions. At one point they were the majority, and now they're something that only enthusiasts still use. Eventually EVs will displace ICE like automatics displaced manuals,
The thing is that a manual transmission has some clear advantages over an automatic if you know how to use it. But ICE vehicles have no advantages whatsoever over EVs. Even those enamored of the sound of a finely tuned V8 will be put to shame by an EV with a totally synthetic "engine" sound played through add-on external speakers. Even hobbyists will tire quickly when there is nothing left to make their preference special.
 
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The thing is that a manual transmission has some clear advantages over an automatic if you know how to use it. But ICE vehicles have no advantages whatsoever over EVs. Even those enamored of the sound of a finely tuned V8 will be put to shame by an EV with a totally synthetic "engine" sound played through add-on external speakers. Even hobbyists will tire quickly when there is nothing left to make their preference special.

They still currently have an advantage when it comes to long distance travel. You can fill up an ICE car in 5 minutes and get on your way. It takes over an hour to fill a Tesla to 100% even using a supercharger.
 
They still currently have an advantage when it comes to long distance travel. You can fill up an ICE car in 5 minutes and get on your way. It takes over an hour to fill a Tesla to 100% even using a supercharger.

Wrong. This is misinformation. Do you actually own a Tesla?

We routinely stop ~every three hours or so, for 25-35 minutes in many long distance trips we have made both north of (Canada) and south of (Florida) our home in New England. After hitting the restrooms, getting a snack, stretching our legs, we find that we actually spend on average AT MOST an extra 5-10 minutes waiting for the car to charge up, and if we are having a major meal stop, the car is always charged up before we finish eating. You appear to be spreading disinformation.
 
Yes, currently. That advantage disappears utterly over the next ten years.

I'm hoping that they get the battery density up so high that the range is 2-3x what a tank of gas will get you in a normal car. Then it wont matter if it takes 30-60 minutes to fill it up because you won't have to stop at all on most road trips.

I know there are also technologies like super capacitors and higher amp chargers like the new liquid cooled super chargers, but I think those will be less important if they can get the battery technology to the point where they can make a car that can go 800 miles on a charge. (who's going to drive further than that in a single day anyway?)