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Who has lost regen with winter tires?

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#201
I'll supply some interesting data points here. :) I experienced this exact issue as well, with a few differences that I'll explain.

TPMS Type (Winter): Autel Sensor-1, fully Tesla compatible, not cloned, new IDs generated
TPMS Reset Prompt: Yes, "New sensors detected / Select wheel size", then "Reset Successful"
TPMS Pressure Status: 42 psi
Delivered Wheel Size: 19" Sport + Continental ProContact RX 235/40R19
Winter Wheel Size: 18" Aero
Winter Tire Type: Nokian WRG4 235/45R18
Model 3: LR RWD
Temperature: Fully warm, no limited regen dots
Regen Status: Limited regen at high speeds, nearly normal regen kicks in at around 30-25 MPH. The most noticable speed range where regen was limited was 40-30 MPH. I never experienced no regen, but the limitation I saw was about half of normal. This occurred for the first 200-300 miles of driving on the WRG4's. After that, the regen slowly returned to normal and is now nearly fully normal after 500 miles of driving.

Points of interest:
  • The all-weather Nokian WRG4 tires are most certainly a tire that will exhibit this problem, although perhaps to a lesser degree than dedicated winter tires..
  • Like others, my regen was limited at high and medium speeds, then will "grab" at lower speeds. In my case, the point where it begins to feel normal was between 30-25 MPH.
  • My regen was never a "no regen" case, it was only limited. Typical response at the higher speeds was about 1/2 of normal regen.
  • I am using Tesla Aero rims.
  • I don't feel that TPMS has anything to do with this issue.
  • I do feel that this issue may be isolated to RWD vehicles.
  • I feel that the tread release compound on brand new tires contributes to the problem. The break-in period for new tires to remove this tread release compound is around 300-500 miles.
  • My regen slowly returned to nearly normal after 500 miles of driving, which is enough time for the tread release compound to break down and disappear.
  • I am in the Southern US, temperatures here have been very mild, nothing below 60F. (I put these winter tires on early for other unrelated reasons. Please, no comments along the lines of "why are you using winter tires in the southern US?" Answer: Because I want to. :cool:)
  • This is not a v9 software issue -- most of my data here was gathered under 2018.36.2, which is the final v8 software.

To supply additional data, I have a P3D+ vehicle that I'm about to swap to a set of all-weather tires. In this case, they will be the Vredestein Quatrac 5's on T-Sportline 18" wheels. I will report here what those behave like when I get them installed. The Vredestein is very similar to the Nokian WRG4 - it's an all-weather tire with the 3-peak mountain/snow symbol, but can be run year-round. The tire is the same size as the Nokian (235/45R18).

If we are correct that this issue affects RWD cars only, then I will have a good data point to compare, since both of my Model 3's are being driven in the same temperatures and conditions.
 
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#202
SomeJoe7777 said:
I'll supply some interesting data points here. :) I experienced this exact issue as well, with a few differences that I'll explain.

TPMS Type (Winter): Autel Sensor-1, fully Tesla compatible, not cloned, new IDs generated
TPMS Reset Prompt: Yes, "New sensors detected / Select wheel size", then "Reset Successful"
TPMS Pressure Status: 42 psi
Delivered Wheel Size: 19" Sport + Continental ProContact RX 235/40R19
Winter Wheel Size: 18" Aero
Winter Tire Type: Nokian WRG4 235/45R18
Model 3: LR RWD
Temperature: Fully warm, no limited regen dots
Regen Status: Limited regen at high speeds, nearly normal regen kicks in at around 30-25 MPH. The most noticable speed range where regen was limited was 40-30 MPH. I never experienced no regen, but the limitation I saw was about half of normal. This occurred for the first 200-300 miles of driving on the WRG4's. After that, the regen slowly returned to normal and is now nearly fully normal after 500 miles of driving.

Points of interest:
  • The all-weather Nokian WRG4 tires are most certainly a tire that will exhibit this problem, although perhaps to a lesser degree than dedicated winter tires..
  • Like others, my regen was limited at high and medium speeds, then will "grab" at lower speeds. In my case, the point where it begins to feel normal was between 30-25 MPH.
  • My regen was never a "no regen" case, it was only limited. Typical response at the higher speeds was about 1/2 of normal regen.
  • I am using Tesla Aero rims.
  • I don't feel that TPMS has anything to do with this issue.
  • I do feel that this issue may be isolated to RWD vehicles.
  • I feel that the tread release compound on brand new tires contributes to the problem. The break-in period for new tires to remove this tread release compound is around 300-500 miles.
  • My regen slowly returned to nearly normal after 500 miles of driving, which is enough time for the tread release compound to break down and disappear.
  • I am in the Southern US, temperatures here have been very mild, nothing below 60F. (I put these winter tires on early for other unrelated reasons. Please, no comments along the lines of "why are you using winter tires in the southern US?" Answer: Because I want to. :cool:)
  • This is not a v9 software issue -- most of my data here was gathered under 2018.36.2, which is the final v8 software.

To supply additional data, I have a P3D+ vehicle that I'm about to swap to a set of all-weather tires. In this case, they will be the Vredestein Quatrac 5's on T-Sportline 18" wheels. I will report here what those behave like when I get them installed. The Vredestein is very similar to the Nokian WRG4 - it's an all-weather tire with the 3-peak mountain/snow symbol, but can be run year-round. The tire is the same size as the Nokian (235/45R18).

If we are correct that this issue affects RWD cars only, then I will have a good data point to compare, since both of my Model 3's are being driven in the same temperatures and conditions.
Click to expand...

I agree this is probably not a TPMS issue in general. But if your TPMS is messed up (which it can be if you put on TPMS that are not compatible) you WILL lose Regen.

Also even though WRG4 tires have "snow flakes", they are not your typical "snow tire" and are closer to the OEM All-Season tires.

It appears multiple things contribute to this.

A "Soft" (snow) tire and RWD that might be more sensitive because only one set of wheels are driven.

My friend has a RWD and bought the exact same wheels and tires I did (Xi3 on Aero's). We'll be putting them on soon and we'll see if his car has the issue.

Also keep in mind, Regen at well above 50 mph is NORMALLY fairly light. And it's NORMAL to be more aggressive as you slow down.
I have the Stock Tires and Wheels back on and my car drives almost exactly like you describe when you think you had a problem. Stronger Regen kicks in around 30 mph.

I would swear Regen used to be stronger at higher speeds. But I think I got used to it. Now when I drive an ICE Vehicle it feels totally out of control because it doesn't slow down when I take my foot off the gas.

I suspect all Model 3's and tires have this issue, but the extent varies depending on AWD vs RWD and how extreme a tire difference you changed to.

The release compound might delay or confuse the relearning process as well as lower temperatures (for most folks). I don't believe the release compound would take 500 miles to wear off. Do you have link that provides that info for all tire brands?

I just did a 50 mile round trip with partial regen (i.e. dots showing) almost the entire time (25 miles each way 52F). I got 240 wh/mi.
So these claims of 20% loss is nuts. You'll lose 5% tops.
 
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#204
mswlogo said:
I agree this is probably not a TPMS issue in general. But if your TPMS is messed up (which it can be if you put on TPMS that are not compatible) you WILL lose Regen.

Also even though WRG4 tires have "snow flakes", they are not your typical "snow tire" and are closer to the OEM All-Season tires.

Also keep in mind, Regen at well above 50 mph is NORMALLY fairly light. And it's NORMAL to be more aggressive as you slow down.
I have the Stock Tires and Wheels back on and my car drives almost exactly like you describe when you think you had a problem. Stronger Regen kicks in around 30 mph.

The release compound might delay or confuse the relearning process as well as lower temperatures (for most folks). I don't believe the release compound would take 500 miles to wear off. Do you have link that provides that info for all tire brands?

I just did a 50 mile round trip with partial regen (i.e. dots showing) almost the entire time (25 miles each way 52F). I got 240 wh/mi.
So these claims of 20% loss is nuts. You'll lose 5% tops.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but these statements are mostly false.

1. There are people in this very thread as well as others who do not have any TPMS modules installed (they get a constant warning about TPMS malfunction, contact service). During one period where I had a malfunctioning TPMS module, I also got this message. Both the people in this thread and I myself can tell you that you do not lose regen under that condition.

2. Nokian brands the WRG4 as an "all-weather" tire that is fully suitable for snow conditions. The tread material, construction, and siping are all much closer to a winter tire than an all-season tire. You could describe them as "winter-biased all-seasons". The 3-peak mountain/snow symbol is not just a marketing gimmick, there is a government certification that a tire must meet (10% greater traction than the average tire when driving on packed snow) to earn the 3PMS symbol.

3. Regen above 50 MPH "feels" light because the regen power is constant and maxed out (maximum green bar). Thus, the deceleration is minimal. As the vehicle slows down, the same regen power level causes the deceleration to increase, making the regen then "feel" stronger. But that is not the case in what I and others in this thread are describing. In our cases, the regen bar never goes to maximum power. In my 40-30 MPH range, the regen bar would reach a maximum of halfway from the "normal" distance. Others have said that they are getting almost no green bar at all until low speeds.

4. I have no link that shows the typical wear times for the tread release compound, but it took me 500 miles before I felt that the wet traction on the WRG4s was excellent. This also corresponds to when my full regen was restored. What I don't know is how much of this distance/delay was due to the tread release compound vs how much of it was due to the car "relearning" how to apply regen (if such a thing actually exists).

5. Full loss of regen can have an efficiency effect anywhere from nearly nothing (if doing highway driving where you maintain a constant speed) to very significant (if doing city driving or traffic driving with frequent starts and stops). The claim that loss of regen would lose a maximum of 5% energy is nonsense. Measurements in the Model S from years ago show that the S can recuperate nearly 60% of the energy used to move the car via regen. The Model 3's motor is probably even more efficient.


You seem to be going out of your way to ignore the facts presented by many others in this thread in order to maintain your view that the loss of regen due to winter tires cannot possibly be true. You are essentially choosing a conclusion first, then attempting to cherry-pick data that supports that conclusion. This is backwards. Objective examiniation of the data presented in this thread shows that indeed, winter tires are having an effect on the regen capabilities of the car, hopefully a temporary one.

If you have not yet put winter tires on a Model 3 RWD vehicle and driven it for several miles, then you are not speaking from experience, but instead only from theory. I suggest you install your winter tires on your Model 3 RWD vehicle, then post your objective findings.
 
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#205
mswlogo said:
I agree this is probably not a TPMS issue in general. But if your TPMS is messed up (which it can be if you put on TPMS that are not compatible) you WILL lose Regen.

Also even though WRG4 tires have "snow flakes", they are not your typical "snow tire" and are closer to the OEM All-Season tires.

It appears multiple things contribute to this.

A "Soft" (snow) tire and RWD that might be more sensitive because only one set of wheels are driven.

My friend has a RWD and bought the exact same wheels and tires I did (Xi3 on Aero's). We'll be putting them on soon and we'll see if his car has the issue.

Also keep in mind, Regen at well above 50 mph is NORMALLY fairly light. And it's NORMAL to be more aggressive as you slow down.
I have the Stock Tires and Wheels back on and my car drives almost exactly like you describe when you think you had a problem. Stronger Regen kicks in around 30 mph.

I would swear Regen used to be stronger at higher speeds. But I think I got used to it. Now when I drive an ICE Vehicle it feels totally out of control because it doesn't slow down when I take my foot off the gas.

I suspect all Model 3's and tires have this issue, but the extent varies depending on AWD vs RWD and how extreme a tire difference you changed to.

The release compound might delay or confuse the relearning process as well as lower temperatures (for most folks). I don't believe the release compound would take 500 miles to wear off. Do you have link that provides that info for all tire brands?

I just did a 50 mile round trip with partial regen (i.e. dots showing) almost the entire time (25 miles each way 52F). I got 240 wh/mi.
So these claims of 20% loss is nuts. You'll lose 5% tops.
Click to expand...
SomeJoe7777 said:
Sorry, but these statements are mostly false.

1. There are people in this very thread as well as others who do not have any TPMS modules installed (they get a constant warning about TPMS malfunction, contact service). During one period where I had a malfunctioning TPMS module, I also got this message. Both the people in this thread and I myself can tell you that you do not lose regen under that condition.

2. Nokian brands the WRG4 as an "all-weather" tire that is fully suitable for snow conditions. The tread material, construction, and siping are all much closer to a winter tire than an all-season tire. You could describe them as "winter-biased all-seasons". The 3-peak mountain/snow symbol is not just a marketing gimmick, there is a government certification that a tire must meet (10% greater traction than the average tire when driving on packed snow) to earn the 3PMS symbol.

3. Regen above 50 MPH "feels" light because the regen power is constant and maxed out (maximum green bar). Thus, the deceleration is minimal. As the vehicle slows down, the same regen power level causes the deceleration to increase, making the regen then "feel" stronger. But that is not the case in what I and others in this thread are describing. In our cases, the regen bar never goes to maximum power. In my 40-30 MPH range, the regen bar would reach a maximum of halfway from the "normal" distance. Others have said that they are getting almost no green bar at all until low speeds.

4. I have no link that shows the typical wear times for the tread release compound, but it took me 500 miles before I felt that the wet traction on the WRG4s was excellent. This also corresponds to when my full regen was restored. What I don't know is how much of this distance/delay was due to the tread release compound vs how much of it was due to the car "relearning" how to apply regen (if such a thing actually exists).

5. Full loss of regen can have an efficiency effect anywhere from nearly nothing (if doing highway driving where you maintain a constant speed) to very significant (if doing city driving or traffic driving with frequent starts and stops). The claim that loss of regen would lose a maximum of 5% energy is nonsense. Measurements in the Model S from years ago show that the S can recuperate nearly 60% of the energy used to move the car via regen. The Model 3's motor is probably even more efficient.


You seem to be going out of your way to ignore the facts presented by many others in this thread in order to maintain your view that the loss of regen due to winter tires cannot possibly be true. You are essentially choosing a conclusion first, then attempting to cherry-pick data that supports that conclusion. This is backwards. Objective examiniation of the data presented in this thread shows that indeed, winter tires are having an effect on the regen capabilities of the car, hopefully a temporary one.

If you have not yet put winter tires on a Model 3 RWD vehicle and driven it for several miles, then you are not speaking from experience, but instead only from theory. I suggest you install your winter tires on your Model 3 RWD vehicle, then post your objective findings.
Click to expand...

I personally don't understand why so many ppl here are attempting to obfuscate the issue. Is really strange.
 
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#208
Yeah so it's a bit better with the update but definitely very different and a needs a lot more use of brakes. I think what sums it up for me is that at 40-50km/h before, I could gradually ease off the accelerator and come to a stop with no brakes until the last couple of metres. If I tried that now, I'm rolling through the junction or hitting the car in front - there's no low-end regen and I'm using the brakes a whole lot more.

My TM3 has essentially the same "engine braking" as my old automatic gasser SUV, perhaps even less. Maybe that's OK but I distinctly remember that's not how it was when I first got the car - regen braking was shockingly strong. Now it's almost non-existent. If it should still be the same, Tesla definitely has an issue with winter tires.
 
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#209
SomeJoe7777 said:
Sorry, but these statements are mostly false.

1. There are people in this very thread as well as others who do not have any TPMS modules installed (they get a constant warning about TPMS malfunction, contact service). During one period where I had a malfunctioning TPMS module, I also got this message. Both the people in this thread and I myself can tell you that you do not lose regen under that condition.

2. Nokian brands the WRG4 as an "all-weather" tire that is fully suitable for snow conditions. The tread material, construction, and siping are all much closer to a winter tire than an all-season tire. You could describe them as "winter-biased all-seasons". The 3-peak mountain/snow symbol is not just a marketing gimmick, there is a government certification that a tire must meet (10% greater traction than the average tire when driving on packed snow) to earn the 3PMS symbol.

3. Regen above 50 MPH "feels" light because the regen power is constant and maxed out (maximum green bar). Thus, the deceleration is minimal. As the vehicle slows down, the same regen power level causes the deceleration to increase, making the regen then "feel" stronger. But that is not the case in what I and others in this thread are describing. In our cases, the regen bar never goes to maximum power. In my 40-30 MPH range, the regen bar would reach a maximum of halfway from the "normal" distance. Others have said that they are getting almost no green bar at all until low speeds.

4. I have no link that shows the typical wear times for the tread release compound, but it took me 500 miles before I felt that the wet traction on the WRG4s was excellent. This also corresponds to when my full regen was restored. What I don't know is how much of this distance/delay was due to the tread release compound vs how much of it was due to the car "relearning" how to apply regen (if such a thing actually exists).

5. Full loss of regen can have an efficiency effect anywhere from nearly nothing (if doing highway driving where you maintain a constant speed) to very significant (if doing city driving or traffic driving with frequent starts and stops). The claim that loss of regen would lose a maximum of 5% energy is nonsense. Measurements in the Model S from years ago show that the S can recuperate nearly 60% of the energy used to move the car via regen. The Model 3's motor is probably even more efficient.


You seem to be going out of your way to ignore the facts presented by many others in this thread in order to maintain your view that the loss of regen due to winter tires cannot possibly be true. You are essentially choosing a conclusion first, then attempting to cherry-pick data that supports that conclusion. This is backwards. Objective examiniation of the data presented in this thread shows that indeed, winter tires are having an effect on the regen capabilities of the car, hopefully a temporary one.

If you have not yet put winter tires on a Model 3 RWD vehicle and driven it for several miles, then you are not speaking from experience, but instead only from theory. I suggest you install your winter tires on your Model 3 RWD vehicle, then post your objective findings.
Click to expand...

I guess you’ve declared yourself the resident the expert, the one with “Winter” Tires in Texas.

Let us know how they work for you in the snow.
 
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#210
CCIE said:
If it's true that the M3 will only work properly with the Sottozero's then Tesla needs send out a notice ASAP. Otherwise most people are going to end up installing Ice-X, Blizzak, or Nokian tires and be very annoyed that they have no regen. This thread is going to explode over the next month as people in the northern US install their winter tires.
Click to expand...

I installed the 18” Aeros with the Pirelli sotto zéros and I have this problem as well. Purchased and installed by Tesla.
 
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#214
Mtlgambler said:
RWD. I put a ticket in as well. Someone replied that they would have engineering verify if my vehicle was operating correctly but I never got a response from that. Early reports are that firmware 42.3 does make it slightly better but I haven’t been able to verify it myself
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I'm still trying to determine if this affects both AWD and RWD vehicles.
 
#217
Darthbenji said:
And to be clear, you’ve eliminated battery temp and high charge state?
Click to expand...
Yup. Tested hot cold high and low battery. Same result. Not sure if it matters but Tesla outsources the installs to a 3rd party. They are a mobile unit that does the installs at your home. After a few miles I got a message on my display that the car detected new wheels and asked me to select if they were 18” 19” or 20”.
 
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#219
Kenypowa said:
Update. After 3 weeks/2000km, I have gotten most of my Regen back. It happened before the latest update. I'm mostly back to one pedal driving.

I guess it takes a bit of time for the car to adjust to the new tire grip.

18 inch aero / Nokia Hakka 9.
Click to expand...

I'm glad to hear this, I've got Hakka's as well.

btw, does anyone know what the Haka actually is?
I wonder what it means in Finnish.
 
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