Who owns the FSD?

[grigory1]

I was watching this Rich Rebuilds video, where he mentions (around 9:53) that “Tesla assigns [the FSD] to the individual, meaning you.”

If that is true:
1) do you have to buy FSD every time you buy a Tesla model 3
2) will Tesla just disable the FSD on a leased vehicle, after it’s returned?
3) how come there are used model x/s available on the used Tesla results with FSD?

 

[diplomat33]

I was watching this Rich Rebuilds video, where he mentions (around 9:53) that “Tesla assigns [the FSD] to the individual, meaning you.”

If that is true:
1) do you have to buy FSD every time you buy a Tesla model 3
2) will Tesla just disable the FSD on a leased vehicle, after it’s returned?
3) how come there are used model x/s available on the used Tesla results with FSD?

FSD is attached to the car, not the owner.

 

[Akikiki]

@grigory1, yes he says that. But he is wrong. Who are you most likely to believe? Tesla or Rich?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The answer seems to be whatever is convenient to Tesla at any given moment.

If you're trying to get a refund then they say it's tied to the car, and can't be removed.

If you're trying to get FSD put back on the car after Tesla takes it away then they argue that "it was mistakenly added despite the fact that it was sold with the car"

Sure I know both of those issues were eventually resolved. But, its kinda funny how Tesla tries to have it both ways.

 

[ABC2D]

If FSD is treated as software and therefore licensed, one might draw a conclusion that once you obtain a license, you could use it on future cars you purchase, relinquishing the use of the license on the previous car, of course. But I dont think that's how FSD is treated (ATM), and it's tied to the car. After all, if you purchase line assist and/or adaptive cruise control on a Mercedes Benz, or other cars, do you think it's reasonable to expect these feature to be "transferred" to new cars you purchase? That's how it was in the past with Teslas (S and X) but they, Tesla, apparently "playing" with other options by removing, allegedly, from pre-owned cars

 

[Akikiki]

So far we know its tied to the car. But because we know its not impossible to reassign (disable on car 1 and enable/transfer license to new car 2), we can ask Tesla to do so. I don't think one person asking is going to make any difference. But if we all start asking when we are talking to Tesla about buying a new car, maybe we can persuade the to mod their policy. They have done other similar policy changes - no software.

We have little or no negotiating power when it comes to a new car with Tesla, but we should all try by asking or making new car purchase conditional on transferring FSD to our new one.

For instance. I own a '17 now with FSD. I am considering a '20 S. I ask and its reasonable for them to disable FSD on the '17 and enable it on the '20. (They still have my original $7,000 I paid). Just move it on paper to the new one. And its turned off on the '17. Regardless of whether I trade or buy new, it only works on one. And if the new owner of the '17 wants it, he can buy it from Tesla like others have on cars that bought it after delivery. I'm not talking about swapping hoods or interior seats. Its merely a software license. They don't expend hours uninstalling software to install it on another.

They won't do it, if we don't ask. And if enough people ask, Tesla/Elon often changes their position.

 

[Sunshine State]

So far we know its tied to the car. But because we know its not impossible to reassign (disable on car 1 and enable/transfer license to new car 2), we can ask Tesla to do so. I don't think one person asking is going to make any difference. But if we all start asking when we are talking to Tesla about buying a new car, maybe we can persuade the to mod their policy. They have done other similar policy changes - no software.

We have little or no negotiating power when it comes to a new car with Tesla, but we should all try by asking or making new car purchase conditional on transferring FSD to our new one.

For instance. I own a '17 now with FSD. I am considering a '20 S. I ask and its reasonable for them to disable FSD on the '17 and enable it on the '20. (They still have my original $7,000 I paid). Just move it on paper to the new one. And its turned off on the '17. Regardless of whether I trade or buy new, it only works on one. And if the new owner of the '17 wants it, he can buy it from Tesla like others have on cars that bought it after delivery. I'm not talking about swapping hoods or interior seats. Its merely a software license. They don't expend hours uninstalling software to install it on another.

They won't do it, if we don't ask. And if enough people ask, Tesla/Elon often changes their position.

They already have your $7,000 you paid them with little to no incentive to refund it to you, you have been using it and benefited from it. They are just as likely to refund your full purchase price you paid to buy your 2017 Model S and apply it to the 2020 Model S. Your idea of group purchase power would only work if you were actually buying a large group of vehicles and at that point it would still only be a bulk purchase discount.

 

[Akikiki]

Really? You think they would refund it? I think not. But if I decline to buy it on the new car, they are simply NOT getting another $7,000 from me.

 

[Sunshine State]

Really? You think they would refund it? I think not. But if I decline to buy it on the new car, they are simply NOT getting another $7,000 from me.

Essentially you are just asking them to discount the new car by $7,000 or not buy their car. That’s a standard negotiation. They already sold you the first car and have your money. I just said how unlikely the refund was, not how likely it would be. Tesla only discounts cars when their numbers are down and their negotiating isn’t done on individual deals. I don’t like that tactic but that is their style.

 

[Atari2600]

It seems like in some cases Tesla treats it as a car locked based subscription that expires when you sell the car.

 

[Akikiki]

Essentially you are just asking them to discount the new car by $7,000 or not buy their car. That’s a standard negotiation. They already sold you the first car and have your money. I just said how unlikely the refund was, not how likely it would be. Tesla only discounts cars when their numbers are down and their negotiating isn’t done on individual deals. I don’t like that tactic but that is their style.

You want to pay for it again, have at it. But if I can have your permission, I will ask them to transfer it. Okay with you?

 

[Knightshade]

It seems like in some cases Tesla treats it as a car locked based subscription that expires when you sell the car.

It's attached to the car.

If you sell the car privately, it goes with the car.

There's nothing to "transfer" it just stays on the car.


If you sell the car back to Tesla- they're then free to remove it and re-sell it to the next guy.


Same thing with lifetime free premium connectivity (they explicitly call this out in the connectivity FAQ BTW)- sell it privately- lifetime stays on the car.

Sell it back to Tesla, they'll remove it and sell connectivity to the next guy.

 

[DiyEvRepair]

Apparently Tesla reserves the right to remove FSD at any time they want, if they find out the new owner hasn't explicitly paid for this feature.

 

[Akikiki]

This could simply be an incomplete story. We don't know both sides of what transpired. Could be that they were allowed a trial.

 

[Knightshade]

Apparently Tesla reserves the right to remove FSD at any time they want, if they find out the new owner hasn't explicitly paid for this feature.

Lotsa misinformation about that story going around.

So first- yes, if you nobody actually paid for FSD, of course they have the right to remove it- why wouldn't they?

In this case though the original owner DID pay for it.

Then sold the car back to Tesla (as a lemon FWIW) at which point Tesla absolutely has the right to remove it for the next sale.

Problem comes in this case that the car itself didn't get updated immediately to remove it it was just flagged in the system to have it removed.


Car went to auction- AFAIK the dealer who bought it did NOT get any paperwork saying it came with FSD.... but when dealer got it it hadn't been updated yet to remove it.

While dealer has the car (and is trying to sell it) Tesla does a routine SW audit, which updates the car and removed FSD.

Dealer admits they KNEW the features were removed at this point- but since they'd already agreed to sell the car to someone they just figured eh must be a bug and sold it as if it had FSD anyway.

So Alec buys the car thinking it has those things because the 3rd party dealer said so- even though they were not actually on the car when he took possession of it


Tesla got enough bad PR they ended up giving him FSD for free anyway- but it's not at all a typical case.



I do think Tesla should be better about on-the-spot downgrading cars they buy, instead of relying on after the fact audits/updates that might happen after the car is auctioned off... but they're absolutely not claiming any "right to remove FSD at any time"

 

[Akikiki]

Are you certain this is the story of that car? There's another story that seems a lot like it already on TMC. Not this userid.

 

[Knightshade]

Are you certain this is the story of that car? There's another story that seems a lot like it already on TMC. Not this userid.

Oh, my bad... that's an entirely different case.

THAT guy in the video just posted actually has on FSD on the car enabled- and is apparently a dealer himself.


Weirdly- he claims they purchased it 'with' FSD but apparently have no sales paperwork saying that (just a screen shot showing it had it at some point- which isn't at all the same thing)



If the dealer paid for a car whose description included FSD, then either:

It does have FSD (ie Tesla didn't remove it before it went to auction) and they're fine and just need the account description updated (again, FSD is on, and working, on the car)

or

it does NOT have FSD (Tesla removed it before sending to auction, but like Alecs case the SW audit hasn't hit the car yet)- in which case the dealer needs to go get a refund from the auction folks who sold him a car with features listed it doesn't really have.


The alternative is the auction description didn't actually say the car had FSD at all- the dealer assumed it did because it showed FSD enabled on the vehicle but none of the sales paperwork lists it. If that's the case he's probably out of luck.



See again Tesla should be doing these audits on-the-spot when they buy vehicles back instead of flagging them for later updates whenever... which might end up being after auction.


The take home right now seems to be- don't buy a used Tesla from a 3rd party dealer who may or may not be able to accurately tell you if the car "really" has FSD or not... (maybe in theory you can get a title history- and if it's EVER been owned by Tesla post-original-sale- you're taking a risk...if it hasn't you should be fine)

 

[Akikiki]

Ahh, There's so many stories these days about Tesla taking FSD off cars. There does not seem to be a pattern or rationale. But I believe each as its own story and we are not privy to its history so we are influenced by what we want to believe. Bottom line is that many may have FSD running/enabled, but also may be trials and didn't get disabled in a timely manner. So more recently Tesla is catching up on paperwork and people are affected and claiming wrong doing.

 

[emden09]

Lotsa misinformation about that story going around.

So first- yes, if you nobody actually paid for FSD, of course they have the right to remove it- why wouldn't they?

Whatever story you refer to. If you sell a car in Germany (at least to a private person - probably not if you sell to a company) you will be bound to a WYSIWYG-Policy by law.

So if there's FSD in the car when you buy it (see before you buy it), you can trust having paid for it by paying the pricetag at the store.

We actually own two M3. One bought with FSD one bought w/o FSD. Both were delivered with FSD. Tesla removed FSD from the car bought w/o FSD more than half a year after purchase. As the cars are owned by a company, we may find out that Tesla could have reserved the right to do so with their contract or terms and conditions (if those contracts terms and conditions apply to German law and are applicable to what German courts will rule out).

But probably we will find out soon, that Tesla does not want a German court ruling on this matter and will just be restoring the FSD on the car (by chance ;-).

So you see its a bit more complicated if you sell offshore than just stating like you did above.

 

[Sunshine State]

You want to pay for it again, have at it. But if I can have your permission, I will ask them to transfer it. Okay with you?

You’re free to waste your time, it’s your choice, have at it. My time is more valuable than that.