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Why do Li-ion Batteries die? And how to improve the situation?

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The NCA cells, (LiNiCoAlO2), should have significantly longer cycle life than straight LiCo cells. Pages 19 and 20 in this PDF have some relevant graphs: http://www.embedded-world.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/batterie2011/Sonnemann_Panasonic.pdf

It's amazing to me that even after these cells are considered EOL for automotive use (80% @ 800 cycles, or 200,000 miles with 100% depth of discharge), they're still good for another 2000 cycles at 70-80% capacity. Who knows what the power delivery is like by that point but the potential uses are pretty exciting.

I mean, you've got this cell and you use it for 10 years in a car, and another 10-15 years in another application. And after all this it's recycled to recover 70% of the CO2 used in its production... 20 years ago. Nothing new for anyone familiar with recycling but it really drives a stake through one of the core arguments against EVs.
 
I question that, the separator should be quite stable at any temperatures short of a thermal runaway. I'd think it more likely to be electrolyte degradation and SEI plating as seen in the video.

The rumor, I think is sourced from here:
http://www.streetinsider.com/Analys...Supplier+for+Nissan+Leaf+Battery/8637838.html

Previously the Leaf had a PPO separator and supposedly at higher temperatures it degraded fairly rapidly in the electrolyte. The new "heat resistant" Leaf pack supposedly changed the separators to ones with a ceramic coating that should eliminate the problem. The coating was used in the LG cells for the Volt and supposedly it is patented, so that's why it was not used in the Leaf (if this is true, Nissan probably licensed the patent).
 
Thanks to Saftwerk for finding this excellent presentation on Li-Ion battery life. It's long, but packed with information and is the closest we'll come to being inside Tesla's battery research lab. In fact, one of the grad students involved in this research project (Aaron Smith) is now running the Battery Lifetime Group at Tesla. It's a fascinating look at the science and technology behind the cells.

Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation? - YouTube

In general the research confirms many of the rules of thumb that have been discussed on the forum. Avoid spending long periods of time at high state of charge and keep the battery cool, and your pack should have a very long life.

Incredibly informative lecture, but I know I've missed some key points and will have to watch it at least one more time. I didn't have time to watch the Q & A yet.
 
I supercharged in Mishawaka at -2 F after an overnight cold soak. The battery first warmed for several minutes, then charge power slowly increased to 30 kW and stayed there for the remainder of the charge. This is for a 60 kWh battery.

I had similar observations when charging after an overnite at 20F in Springfield in early December. Charge rate didn't get much above 33kW. Fortunately I just needed to add enough to get to Grants Pass.

I just joined this thread yesterday (the 9th) and didn't finish watching the Q & A until a bit ago. Thanks to 100thmonkey for sharing the information he got.
 
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Great presentation and gives me more confidence in my Model X as a long term purchase.

The standard "cycle count" graphs from battery manufacturers are misleading since these are done as rapid cycles over a short period of time (30 days) which hides the effect of time at high SOC. This is what got Nissan in trouble with their poor choice of battery chemistry in the Leaf.

Re: One major difference between Nissan LEAF and GM Volt implementation

Looks like the TMS with 30C/86F is the key. From video where I added F temps in the red.
NjNIAWd.png



Graphs from this Volt article.
http://gm-volt.com/2013/05/03/volt-battery-thermal-management-system-in-the-hot-arizona-sun/
Slide6.jpg

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Slide5.jpg



Remember: The Volt apparently had chemistry changes in 2013.


2013 Chevrolet Volt Boosts EV Range to 38 Miles
Battery storage capacity increase and cell chemistry changes enable improved range
2012-06-07
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Jun/0607_volt.html
In addition, the total storage capacity of the Volt battery has been increased from 16 kWh of energy to 16.5 kWh, and engineers have expanded the state-of-charge window to use 10.8 kWh of the total battery energy – up from 10.3 kWh used in the 2012 model. The battery system maintains a buffer to ensure battery life, but that buffer has been reduced.
<snip>
Cells with improved chemistry have accumulated 150,000 test miles to date. The tests have revealed less battery degradation, the ability to withstand temperatures as low as -30 degrees Celsius and less impact by energy throughput.
 
Except if you notice the Tesla-like chemistry is largely unaffected by temperature, so I'd say the chemistry is the key.
Hence the reason I stated this right before that sentence!! (And Tesla has a TMS to boot!)
Re: One major difference between Nissan LEAF and GM Volt implementation
The Tesla battery validation from that lecture is impressive and that the person/inventor is working at Telsa now. I don't spent money completely willy nilly and thus my long term purchase of the Model X. As well that I'm keeping the Volt in my family long term as well.
 
The punchline is at minute 34:04

He shows a chart of a Medtronic LiIon cell used in the human body, so good and warm 37C/98F+ at all times, and after 8 years and 20,000 cycles still has nearly 70% of its original capacity left.

"This is really impressive. Cells like this, with nickel, cobalt, aluminum are in the Tesla Motors vehicle. Tesla Motors uses technology at least this good."​

Our batteries are going to last forever.
 
What's interesting in this lecture is how much this guy really *doesn't* know.

He's really good at creating efficient testing methods, to discover how the batteries are going to perform, but he doesn't fully understand why.

It seems to me a chemist/physisist would know exactly what is occurring in the battery, what changes will happen over time, and has already run definitive computer simulations for actual battery lifetimes and degradation.

Obviously the battery company he was working with in testing additives, had a trick up their sleeve with their 5th additive, and knew what they're creating to get a 20x improvement.

Where are these scientists?
Why is this so secretive, even now?

I suspect there may only be two handfuls of people in the world who fully/truly know how most of these batt chemistries work together. Yet they're likely too busy working on the next best chemistry mix to stop and talk.

What does JB know?
 
He's really good at creating efficient testing methods, to discover how the batteries are going to perform, but he doesn't fully understand why.

It seems to me a chemist/physisist would know exactly what is occurring in the battery, what changes will happen over time, and has already run definitive computer simulations for actual battery lifetimes and degradation.

I doubt it. No doubt the battery companies have ideas and theories, but with five additives to an already complex electrolyte, no chemist or physicist can know how it will perform under different conditions. Which is why they run experiments. If you give a chemist a collection of complex compounds and ask them what happens when you mix them, they will give you a good guess. But they won't know for sure until they test it. And they sure won't know what happens to the mixture in eight years after complex temperature and reaction cycling.

The reason why this presentation is so interesting is that he has come up with a way to predict long term battery life without having to run an eight year long experiment. As he shows right at the beginning, most battery companies do quick cycle tests, which are not useful to predict long term battery life. This is yet another reason why when you see a random researcher/battery company tout their latest breakthrough, it really doesn't mean much. This kind of testing is what is required - using sensitive equipment and procedures to five decimal places. And I'm really glad Tesla hired a PHD from this guy's lab so that they could do their own testing.

Obviously the battery company he was working with in testing additives, had a trick up their sleeve with their 5th additive, and knew what they're creating to get a 20x improvement.

Where are these scientists?
Why is this so secretive, even now?

Because it isn't an academic lab. The battery company has developed proprietary (secret) additives which it will use to create their next wonder battery, but they have zero reason to tell the world how they did it. Academic labs are great for inventing new ideas, but when those ideas become economically useful, then those researchers typically migrate to a for-profit company. There they tap the equity markets to raise tons more money than they ever could have had in academia, hire more PHDs, and really stretch out the boundaries of their science. Unfortunately that science then becomes proprietary. It eventually makes it out to the wider world as scientists and engineers go work for other companies, etc.

What does JB know?

I suspect a lot. Tesla is actively creating new battery chemistries in house in concert with other patent and technology holders.

If you were to value Tesla as a company, you should realize that it has batteries that no one else has, and will make even better batteries than everybody else. It has a motor/inverter package that no one else has and will continue to have the best motor/inverter for quite some time. It has lower manufacturing costs that its competitors. It has a Supercharger network that no one else has and will continue to have this unique advantage that no one else has. Tesla really is the next Apple/Microsoft/whatever. Only bigger and with more proprietary technology :)
 
Really cool video for the curious :) Make a lot of sense that ion loss due to parasitic reaction and higher reaction rate due to heat are the main causes.

So one curious question is what did Tesla figure out by using the oldest and presumably the cheapest lithium ion battery technology (Lithium Cobalt)? According to this following link, lithium cobalt has the lowest charge/discharge rate due to low ion exchange surfaces while the newer design lithium manganese oxide has higher rates from its 3D ion exchange structure.

High-Power Cobalt-Based Lithium-ion Battery - Battery University

As users of Tesla's battery architecture, we certainly don't see the lower charge/discharge rates. Model S has the highest charge rate of any EVs out there in both external AC or DC charging. And certainly discharges fast enough to yield significant performance. I wonder if it has to do with the inherent parallelism from very high number of small cells? S85 has ~7000 cells while Leaf has ~200 cells. S85 has 3.5X capacity over the Leaf (85/24kWhr). S85 has 10x parallelism than the Leaf (7000/200/3.5)
 
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So one curious question is what did Tesla figure out by using the oldest and presumably the cheapest lithium ion battery technology (Lithium Cobalt)?...As users of Tesla's battery architecture, we certainly don't see the lower charge/discharge rates. Model S has the highest charge rate of any EVs out there in both external AC or DC charging. And certainly discharges fast enough to yield significant performance. I wonder if it has to do with the inherent parallelism from very high number of small cells?
"Lithium Cobalt" typically refers to Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2), which was what the Roadster used. The Tesla Model S uses NCA chemistry (Nickel Aluminum Cobalt Oxide or LiNiCoAlO2). It's the second to last one on the chart inside your link.

You are kind of close with your guess of a high number of small cells, but the size and number of cells don't actually matter as much. The advantage of Tesla is they have large capacity batteries. What the battery chemistry gives you is a certain charge/discharge "C-rate" (1C = fully discharged in 1 hour, 2C = fully discharged in 0.5 hour). However, the actual power you get from a battery is the capacity multiplied by the C-rate. So you can make up any chemistry deficiencies simply by having a larger battery.

For example, the 60kWh Model S pack can discharge at 4C to supply 240kW (60kWh*4C). A 24kWh Leaf would have to be able to discharge at 10C to supply the same amount of power (24kWh * 10C = 240C).
 
In fact some other chemistries do have higher charge and discharge rates, C rates, LiFePO4, Li titante, can do 30C +, and some of the Li Polymer cells will do 90C! However specific energy is lower so you can't build a large pack with them without running into weight and space issues. Plus the Li Poly cells can fail rather spectacularly.
 
The Tesla Model S uses NCA chemistry (Nickel Aluminum Cobalt Oxide or LiNiCoAlO2). It's the second to last one on the chart inside your link.

Thanks for the correction. I see NCA chemistry's typical characteristics are higher cost + longer life. Long life seems a fitting choice for EVs. I guess Tesla's battery cost economics are probably a closely kept secret :)

Found you guys prior long discussion on 18650 battery chemistry forumulation. Enlightening :)

18650 Batteries
 
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So, charging fast, up to C/2 is better than slow. I currently have dual chargers but only use a 50A 240V (14-50) setup at home charging at 40A. It sounds like I would be extending the life if I installed a HPWC and charged at 80A. Is that correct and would it be worth the $1,200 for the wall unit and another $500 for installation? Would it really make any difference?