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Will 3LRD be same highway range as S100D in hot & cold weather?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Nuclear Fusion, Sep 19, 2017.

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  1. Nuclear Fusion

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    Since it’s a smaller cabin to cool/heat?
    Then again maybe all wheel drive has a greater effect on the range of the smaller vehicle, due to a greater percentage of induced drag & weight.
    But the 3 has the better drag coefficient, so more slippery at higher speeds.
     
  2. Tiger

    Tiger Member

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    Maybe better sound deadening / thermal insulation?
     
  3. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #3 Troy, Sep 19, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    TLDR: The Model 3 80D should have more range than the Model S 100D.

    Hi. I doubt the cabin space will make any difference.

    The Model 3 has 1.5" more headroom in the front and 2.4" more in the rear seats than the Model S.
    • Model 3: Front= 40.3”, Rear = 37.7”(source)
    • Model S: Front= 38.8", Rear= 35.3" (source)
    The Model 3 has practically the same legroom as the Model S:
    • Model 3 Leg room: 42.7” Front, 35.2” Rear (source)
    • Model S Leg room: 42.7" Front, 35.4" Rear (source)
    The Model 3 is only 1.2 inches (3 cm) narrower:
    • Model 3 width: 76.1” with mirrors folded (source)
    • Model S width: 77.3” with mirrors folded (source)
    However, considering that the single motor Model 3 80 has the same EPA highway dyno test score as the Model S 100D, I think the dual motor Model 3 80D will have more range than the Model S 100D. However, if the Model S switches to permanent magnet motors, then the Model S 100D might catch up to the Model 3 80D. PMAC motors are 2% more efficient (94% peak efficiency instead of 92%). The Model 3 and the Bolt have PMAC motors. The MS and MX have AC induction motors. PMAC motors were more expensive in the past but the prices have come down.

    I don't have any range calculations for the Model 3 80D but considering that Model 3 75D has 10 miles more range than the 75, the difference between Model 3 80 and 80D might be 10 miles.

    In the following table, the orange cells show real-world range. The purple cells show real-world range after the battery has degraded. Around 65,000 km, Tesla batteries have 95% capacity left on average. See this graph. The battery Supercharge percentages in 30 minutes are from this video for the Model S. For the Model 3, I calculated them from the numbers on this page. For example, the page says the Model 3 80 will Supercharge 170 miles in 30 minutes. That's 170mi/310mi= 54.8% for the Model 3 80. The numbers in the blue cells are highway dyno test scores published by the EPA.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative x 7
  4. anonim1979

    anonim1979 Member

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    I think in this table MS P100D's and 100D's numbers/names are switched.
     
  5. kvandivo

    kvandivo Member

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    Just curious..

    For something like the 100D (or even if it IS switched with the P) that's showing that the EPA dyno ranges are around 283 miles, and that 'real world' @65mpg will get you around 298 miles.

    Is this what people really see on a car with "335 miles of range"? I know there's the whole "you'll never get what they tell you", but is it really off by that much? I'm considering getting a 100D but seeing a 10-15% reduction in expected range is a bit annoying. Don't mean to hijack the thread, but this stood out to me.
     
  6. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    Hi, @anonim1979. The numbers are correct. You can see the data here yourself. The numbers are as follows:

    Model , City dyno score, Highway dyno score
    Model S 100D 449.76 mi 455.37 mi
    Model S P100D 414.45 mi 469.99 mi
     
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  7. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #7 Troy, Sep 19, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    Hi, @kvandivo.
    Below, you can see the same table in miles instead of km.

    EPA rated range is calculated differently for Model S versions because Tesla used different multipliers for different Model S versions. In 2012, the multiplier was 79.6%. Then it changed to 75.40% and then to 73.80% for the Model S. For some unknown reason, even in 2017, some Model S versions kept using the 75.40% while others used the 73.80%. In comparison, all Model X variants use the 73.40% multiplier. All other EV makers use the 70% multiplier and the Model 3 also uses the 70% multiplier.

    Therefore when somebody says I can easily get EPA rated range in my Tesla and somebody else says I can never get it, the difference might be because of how the EPA rated range was calculated for those two models.

    For example, the Model S 85 has 265 mi EPA rated range and the Model S 75D has 259 mi EPA rated range. But if you look at the numbers in blue in the table below, you can see that the Model S 75D achieved a higher score in EPA highway dyno tests. However, the Model S 85 used the 79.6% multiplier in 2012 and was never updated in 2013, 2014 or 2015. The Model S 75D used the 73.8% multiplier to convert the dyno scores to range numbers. In real life, the Model S 75D has more range than the Model S 85 based on two data points:
    1. EPA highway test scores
    2. Survey data about Wh/mi numbers combined with the available battery capacity that shows real work average range.

    [​IMG]

    The table above is based on EPA highway dyno scores. There is also a completely different method based on survey data. Here is how that second method works: The trip meter in the Model S/X shows your lifetime mileage and lifetime average efficiency. Let's say it shows 337.9 Wh/mi in a Model S 90D average efficiency for the entire duration of ownership. We know that the Model S 90D has 81,800 Wh usable capacity. Therefore it is possible to calculate the lifetime average range: 81,800 Wh/ 337.9 Wh/mi= 242 miles.

    Of course, the range will change from one driver to another but if you survey enough people then you can calculate a reasonable average for each Model S variant. In fact, for the Model S 90D, 23 people have submitted data and their average was 337.9 Wh/mi. Therefore the 242 miles is the average range of 23 Model S 90D cars. You can see the full list here. Unfortunately, there are no 100D's in the survey.
     
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  8. SteveG3

    SteveG3 Active Member

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    Troy, thanks for the very helpful post. Going back to the OP's comment about cooling/heating the cabin, wouldn't the Model 3 benefit in this regard by not being a hatchback? That is, unless one has the back seats down in the 3, wouldn't it have roughly 20-30% less interior space for the climate control to deal with?
     
  9. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    Hi, @SteveG3. Thinking about it again, you could be right. I guess it depends on how much energy the Model S uses to heat or cool the trunk area. The rest of the cabin seems identical. The problem with the trunk area is that the air is trapped there and there is no ventilation. Even with the rear facing seats, you still don't get any air ventilation. Some people even created their own DIY ventilation. Therefore it might make a difference but maybe not as much as expected. Let's assume the Model 3 will use 15% less energy than the Model S to heat the cabin. Also, let's assume cabin heating uses 10% of range in winter. In that case, the Model 3 would use 10%-0.15*10%= 8.5% of range in winter. 1.5% less range loss would give the edge to the Model 3 80 in winter over the Model S 100D.


    [​IMG]
     
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