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Will Autopilot force other manufacturers to accelerate truly "hands off" auto steer?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by calisnow, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

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    #1 calisnow, Oct 19, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
    It has got to now be a tough comparison for a Mercedes salesperson to have to explain to a purchaser that their car will actually disconnect its auto steering and crash if the driver removes their hands from the wheel - when right now, today, the buyer can purchase a car that will steer itself down the highway with no "nanny" and no suicidal "disconnect" in the event that the driver becomes incapacitated.

    This true autopilot is the ultimate luxury feature - and I would think it might force the hand of manufacturers who have been pussyfooting around with handicapped self steering features - especially makers who define themselves as leading luxury brands.

    Even the next generation E class to be released in 2016, which boasts of being the most technologically advanced MBZ ever in production - will still require the driver to keep their hands on the wheel at all times.

    I do wonder if MBZ is rethinking their stance at all now.

    It was easy enough to say that autopilot was vaporware - but it isn't now.
     
  2. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    #2 MsElectric, Oct 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    What do you mean other manufacturer's don't have hands off auto steer? :tongue:

    Seriously, this goes to show how dumb these limitations are and kudos to Tesla for taking leadership on how driving aids should be implemented.

     
  3. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

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    Infiniti Q50 has had full hands-off autosteer since 2013; no nagging, no hacks required.

    Tesla is just playing catch up, and will be for another couple of releases.

    I doubt the Germans are bothered either way about the technology, though I bet someone in Mercedes' marketing department got a roasting for calling their feature "Distronic Plus with Active Steering Assist" rather than having the idea of calling it "Autopilot".
     
  4. donv

    donv Member

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    I agree with you that it is going to push the other manufacturers to endorse it, more than anything. Sure, Mercedes and Infiniti have had more or less this for a while, but they've never given a full throated endorsement* to hands off driving. I think this will push that.

    *Even though Tesla got a bit wobbly at the last minute.
     
  5. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Q50's system can only make very slight adjustments and will easily ping pong. Mercedes and Tesla's system is much smoother. The only thing is Tesla combined the advantages of both (no nagging of the Q50 and the smoothness of the Mercedes) and also added more: like auto lane changes and ability of the car to pull over automatically when there is no response rather than dropping control completely.
     
  6. scottf200

    scottf200 Active Member

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    According to Tesla your hands are supposed to be on the wheel right ... legally speaking!

    Image: http://i.imgur.com/b8Voqp6.png
    b8Voqp6.png
     
  7. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Tesla is wise to make that statement, but the reality is that Autopilot by design does not require the drivers hands to touch the wheel except when the system does not have enough information to operate properly.
    Which is exactly the way it should work at this stage I. It's evolution. Mercedes is behind...
     
  8. Just a Reader

    Just a Reader Member

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    This is a legal issue, not a technical one. Let's see how this will play out when the first Model S on autopilot causes a serious accident while its "driver" was busy texting on his iPhone or whatever.
     
  9. LetsGoFast

    LetsGoFast Active Member

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    Who would be at fault if they ran into the back of a stopped car with their cruise control on? What is the difference here?
     
  10. Just a Reader

    Just a Reader Member

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    Cruise control doesn't allow you to take the hands of the wheel and to relinquish control to the car itself, as does auto pilot without "nag".
    Lawyers will argue that Tesla has made such dangerous conduct possible by releasing auto pilot without a "nag" and that a warning somewhere on the screen isn't enough.
     
  11. Spidy

    Spidy Member

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    Cruise control: Driver still has hands on the wheel so even without any additional notification or warning it's pretty obvious he is still in charge of the vehicle.

    Autopilot: There are notes that you should keep the hand on the wheel, but from a legal standpoint will that be enough? Could those have been overlooked? Should Tesla have acted after seeing all the youtube videos of people not doing so? Was it negligent to not make sure people have their hand on the wheel with some nag feature? Is the name Autopilot misleading (e.g. you can see pilots doing all kinds of other stuff while on Autopilot)?

    I think it's a question of time until we see a Autopilot lawsuit I mean people sue for all kind of stupid ****... Meadow Walker sues Porsche over father's death - CNN.com

    If Tesla wins those then maybe other manufacturers might remove the requirement to keep your hands on the wheel.
     
  12. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Cruise control allows the driver to take their foot off the pedal rest it on the dashboard if the driver is flexible enough. Cruise control certainly can increase the amount of time it takes for the driver to apply the brakes. Yet no car with cruise control requires the driver to maintain contact with the pedals. How dangerous!
     
  13. Just a Reader

    Just a Reader Member

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    Your argument simply doesn't fly, you may just as well stop digging. Auto pilot without a nag allows the "driver" to take his hands off the wheel and to divert his attention from the road. Cruise control doesn't. That's the decisive argument.
     
  14. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    Cruise control lets you take your feet off the pedals, same difference. LetsGoFast is right.

    The driver is ultimately responsible since this is a drivers aid (legally), not autonomous driving.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Autopilot != Autonomous driving. The driver is still responsible. Period. That's the decisive argument.

    It's an aid to help fatigue. It's never been advertised as you being able to take a nap while driving.
     
  15. Just a Reader

    Just a Reader Member

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    It doesn't matter how it's being advertised. Car manufacturers also have to monitor how their products are being used.
     
  16. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    Proof? I'm not saying it's not true, but unless you can show me which governing authority looks over this, I call shenanigans.

    If that there the case, car manufacturers should put breathalyzers into each car and limit the speed to the speed limit. Can't have all the speed related deaths.
     
  17. qwertzy

    qwertzy Member

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    #17 qwertzy, Oct 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Driver is still in the loop, and has full responsibility, so it isn't an issue of liability.



    @58m40s
     
  18. Just a Reader

    Just a Reader Member

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    European Union Directive 2001/95/EC and the enacting legislation of the member states requires the manufacturers of consumer goods to monitor how their products are actually being used and to take appropriate steps if the actual usage causes risks. If 50 % of respondents in a user forum state that they violate instructions and operate their cars without having their hands on the wheel, then lawyers will argue that the manufacturer should have taken appropriate steps to mitigate the risk, e.g. introduce a "nagging" feature. National supervisory authorities may also take action.
    Don't know if there is comparable legislation in the US but I would be very much surprised if there wasn't any.
     
  19. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    Thank you. I googled, I'm not an expect in the law field (can't tell if that's clothing/etc. or everything that's sold), so I'll accept that you're likely correct.

    We don't know if 50% of users are following rules or not. TMC is a subset of the owner community, a very vocal subset. It could correlate that the more advanced users are on TMC, whereas the average user who follows directions is not.

    Does anyone know if there is anything like this in the states?
     
  20. SebastianR

    SebastianR Member

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    Nope. Not at all. Case in point? Speeding (even if the car recognizes speed limits), ridiculous top speeds (why would a car going more than 100mph be legal in the US?) etc. etc. etc.

    Yep, there is the EC legislation, but I don't think that's actually followed.

    Fact is, cars are super dangerous. They kill thousands of people every year. They are ridiculously over-build/too much power and yet they are entirely legal.

    And even though I know you like to dismiss the cruise control argument, the only thing is shows is: only new stuff is even subject to regulation, old (very dangerous) technology is perfectly legal and allowed. Just think how many decades it took to make seat belts mandatory - and who knows if they were today was it not for Ralph Nader.
     

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