Will Mercedes jump to level 3 before Tesla? Looks like it.

[bradtem]

Traffic jam assist is a valuable feature for those who regularly drive in traffic jams. Which isn't me, but it is some people. Tesla could probably do this with just camera/radar.

On my Tesla, highway robocar is much more valuable to me than city street driving. For running a robotaxi service, it is of course the other way around. However, it's not clear you can do either of those at present with just cameras, but Tesla keeps hoping. But they are putting so much of their effort into it that it distracts from lesser products they could deliver that customers would like:

1. Traffic jam pilot
2. Automatic valet park
3. Automatic entry and exit of supercharger stalls (the guy waiting for your stall will be happy to unplug you, and others will plug you in.)
4. Put the rest of the work into trying to make highway self-drive possible with just cameras. Though that may still be a waste of time.
5. If you can pull off #4, look into city street driving. City street driver assist is not useful.

 

[sleepydoc]

Huh? It's a perfectly legal feature of the car. It just requires supervision like Autopilot does.

The point is it's not considered L3. Honestly, this system seems like a big nothing. Tesla (and other manufacturers) have equivalent systems. The only difference is you're required to tug on the steering wheel once in a while. Mercedes says it's Level 3 but then says you have to pay attention and supervise it and it's only level 3 up to 35 MPH. I guess they're 'first' but they haven't really solved any problems that several other automakers haven't already solved.

 

[bradtem]

The point is it's not considered L3. Honestly, this system seems like a big nothing. Tesla (and other manufacturers) have equivalent systems. The only difference is you're required to tug on the steering wheel once in a while. Mercedes says it's Level 3 but then says you have to pay attention and supervise it and it's only level 3 up to 35 MPH. I guess they're 'first' but they haven't really solved any problems that several other automakers haven't already solved.

No, Mercedes does not say you have to pay attention. You do have to be ready to take over after a 10 second warning (though even then it has a fallback.)

 

[Daniel in SD]

Do you have a source for that? I know they say you can't sleep nor leave the seat, but I haven't seen them say you can't use your phone or read a book. If that's the case, it's fairly worthless, as the primary suggested use case for L3 is to get some work done or entertainment while stuck in traffic.

I remember hearing it in a review but I can't find it. They don't seem to have to user manual available yet (at least in English).
Note that this April 6th press release implies that only infotainment system use is allowed:

This ultimate luxury experience enables customers to win back precious time when in the car through relaxation or productivity. For instance, they can communicate with work colleagues via in-car office tools, write messages and emails via the head unit, browse the internet or just sit back, relax and watch a movie.

Mercedes-Benz – the front runner in automated driving and safety technologies | Mercedes-Benz Group

Since the invention of the automobile in 1886, Mercedes-Benz has repeatedly set standards in vehicle safety with new innovative technologies. Safety is a core element of the Mercedes-Benz brand.

group.mercedes-benz.com

 

[Daniel in SD]

The point is it's not considered L3. Honestly, this system seems like a big nothing. Tesla (and other manufacturers) have equivalent systems. The only difference is you're required to tug on the steering wheel once in a while. Mercedes says it's Level 3 but then says you have to pay attention and supervise it and it's only level 3 up to 35 MPH. I guess they're 'first' but they haven't really solved any problems that several other automakers haven't already solved.

The system that works up to 37mph is L3 (no supervision). The system that works up to 130mph is L2 (supervision).
I used to think that people wouldn't have a hard time understanding this but these threads are changing my mind...

 

[diplomat33]

This strikes me as a company racing to have the 'first' bragging rights. If you read the article, it's extremely limited. 60 km/h is roughly 35 mph. it will only stay in it's lane and brake. It doesn't appear to do any other navigation or steering, nor do they mention lane changes much less turns. Essentially this is the equivalent of autopilot at half the speed.

True, there is some bragging rights going on. The bragging rights is that you don't have to supervise under certain conditions. But Mercedes does plan to increase the max speed of the L3 system over time. So this is similar to how Tesla launched AP2 at lower speeds but gradually increased the speed as they validated the system. I expect Mercedes will do the same. So I think we will see "full speed" L3 later.

 

[sleepydoc]

The system that works up to 37mph is L3 (no supervision). The system that works up to 130mph is L2 (supervision).
I used to think that people wouldn't have a hard time understanding this but these threads are changing my mind...

Unfortunately Mercedes tells you not to do that. You're not even supposed to use your phone.

No, we understand completely, but you keep conflating the two in an attempt to overstate what Mercedes has done.

Mercedes has an L3 system with limited abilities that only works up to 60 kmh in very limited circumstances, similar to the abilities that other manufacturers' systems have and, by your statements, doesn't let you do things which take your attention from the road. If you want to go faster than that then it's L2, just like all the other systems out there.

In the end, my Model Y does the same thing, it just requires me to tug on the steering wheel. Plus it can change lanes, make turns, etc.

I'm happy that Mercedes has done this and more importantly that the legal and regulatory issues are being resolved, but it's a mischaracterization to imply that Mercedes has made some huge break through and is years ahead of everyone else.

 

[Daniel in SD]

No, we understand completely, but you keep conflating the two in an attempt to overstate what Mercedes has done.

Mercedes has an L3 system with limited abilities that only works up to 60 kmh in very limited circumstances, similar to the abilities that other manufacturers' systems have and, by your statements, doesn't let you do things which take your attention from the road. If you want to go faster than that then it's L2, just like all the other systems out there.

In the end, my Model Y does the same thing, it just requires me to tug on the steering wheel. Plus it can change lanes, make turns, etc.

I'm happy that Mercedes has done this and more importantly that the legal and regulatory issues are being resolved, but it's a mischaracterization to imply that Mercedes has made some huge break through and is years ahead of everyone else.

No, you do not need to pay attention to the road while the L3 system is engaged.

This ultimate luxury experience enables customers to win back precious time when in the car through relaxation or productivity. For instance, they can communicate with work colleagues via in-car office tools, write messages and emails via the head unit, browse the internet or just sit back, relax and watch a movie.

Mercedes has a good presentation on the system: https://group.mercedes-benz.com/doc...19-02-20-vssa-mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-a.pdf

I'm definitely not conflating the two. The Mercedes L2 system does require you to pay attention to the road which is a huge difference!
There's no way for any of us to know how far ahead Mercedes is or whether they're even ahead at all from an engineering standpoint. All we know is that they think their system is reliable enough to operate safely without supervision and they're willing to take responsibility for it. Time will tell!

 

[ZenRockGarden]

You have to admit it would be nice and relaxing with a system that is rated to completely tune out. I'm not breaking my laptop out and doing any work with FSD.

Honestly, for the stated constrained use case (major highway, stay in center lane, follow car in front up to 35 mph) - basic AutoPilot could probably run for hours without intervention.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I remember hearing it in a review but I can't find it. They don't seem to have to user manual available yet (at least in English).
Note that this April 6th press release implies that only infotainment system use is allowed:

Mercedes-Benz – the front runner in automated driving and safety technologies | Mercedes-Benz Group

Since the invention of the automobile in 1886, Mercedes-Benz has repeatedly set standards in vehicle safety with new innovative technologies. Safety is a core element of the Mercedes-Benz brand.

group.mercedes-benz.com

If the infotainment system is like older Mercedes I have tried, then that experience will suck. I guess we'll see, but hopefully it is not that restrictive and people can use their own devices.

 

[Bouba]

All they have shown is that when German auto manufacturers snap their fingers all of Europe stands to attention

 

[sleepydoc]

No, you do not need to pay attention to the road while the L3 system is engaged.

and yet you can't even use your phone.

They appear to have invented a system that can follow the car in front of it, in a single lane, on a restricted set of roads, at low speed.

Woohoo!

They also have invented a system that works on all well marked roads up to 130mph.

I'm definitely not conflating the two.

you seem to be conflating the two. Regardless, you brought the L2 system into a discussion about the L3 system, hence the 'confusion'

 

[bradtem]

and yet you can't even use your phone.

This is just German law-abidingness. Of course you can use your phone. They just can't tell you that you can use the phone because officially the law does not allow phone use while driving. If the law (which is archaic and not written for this situation) didn't say that they would be fine with it. The product allows you to play video games. It is entirely different from Tesla Autopilot, night and day different. However, it is only in traffic jams.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is just German law-abidingness. Of course you can use your phone. They just can't tell you that you can use the phone because officially the law does not allow phone use while driving. If the law (which is archaic and not written for this situation) didn't say that they would be fine with it. The product allows you to play video games. It is entirely different from Tesla Autopilot, night and day different. However, it is only in traffic jams.

I have not seen anywhere yet them saying explicitly you can't use your phone. By definition, when the car is in L3 mode you are not driving. If this is not the case, then you would still be liable for what the car does when it is in L3, which kills one of its selling points.

 

[Daniel in SD]

and yet you can't even use your phone.

Well, I have not found that in writing (my recollection could be wrong or they may have changed their stance). There is an obvious safety issue with having your phone between you and the airbag though...

you seem to be conflating the two. Regardless, you brought the L2 system into a discussion about the L3 system, hence the 'confusion'

You were the one who brought up an L2 system in the discussion of an L3 system! haha.

Essentially this is the equivalent of autopilot at half the speed.

I just pointed out that Mercedes also has a system that is actually essentially equivalent to Autopilot. My intent was to differentiate L2 and L3 systems, not to conflate them.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I have not seen anywhere yet them saying explicitly you can't use your phone. By definition, when the car is in L3 mode you are not driving. If this is not the case, then you would still be liable for what the car does when it is in L3, which kills one of its selling points.

Of course you won't be liable. My speculation is that Mercedes doesn't want to be liable for the damage the phone does to your face in the event of an airbag deployment.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I'm happy that Mercedes has done this and more importantly that the legal and regulatory issues are being resolved, but it's a mischaracterization to imply that Mercedes has made some huge break through and is years ahead of everyone else.

I think of it as more of a destination than a huge break through.

They chose to do that, and not some other thing.

It is an achievement from both the standpoint of working with the government to enable that, and in the development of technology to do so.

Once you're at L3/L4 you can't pretend anymore as there isn't a driver quickly intervene or to pass the liability onto.

It's an entirely different ball game.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

True, there is some bragging rights going on. The bragging rights is that you don't have to supervise under certain conditions. But Mercedes does plan to increase the max speed of the L3 system over time. So this is similar to how Tesla launched AP2 at lower speeds but gradually increased the speed as they validated the system. I expect Mercedes will do the same. So I think we will see "full speed" L3 later.

If I understand it correctly they have to work with the government to have the government approve faster speed L3..

It will be interesting to see when/if Germany will have faster speed L3.

I'm personally opposed to faster speed L3. They might be able to pull it off in Germany, but it would be a disaster in the US.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

All they have shown is that when German auto manufacturers snap their fingers all of Europe stands to attention

It didn't work out so nicely for Audi's L3 plans in Germany which they ended up scrapping/delaying.

Audi was supposed to be first.

 

[EVNow]

You have to admit it would be nice and relaxing with a system that is rated to completely tune out. I'm not breaking my laptop out and doing any work with FSD.

I'd not be to breaking my laptop out and doing any work on this either. No idea what the error rate is - and how they have tested.

From whatever I can find - they have basically tested in simulated highways conditions on the testing track they have.

How do we know it is any different from "Level 3" Honda Legend (?) they sold which almost crashed while giving a demo to a journalist.

This is "Level 3" by Honda. The car almost hits a truck changing its lane. The driver had to disconnect. Best thing is this is a demo by Honda !!!

https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/siwk0i