Charging Station standards

So does this mean that the SAE will now "bless" / approve the Mennekes combo?

This article:
German Automakers Endorse a Unified Standard for D.C. Fast-Charging - NYTimes.com
and Tomsax's comments led me to think they were saying that the 1-phase J1772 based SAE North-American centric standard combo is what they think will be announced in Germany, which would conflict (as DPeilow pointed out) with the statement that it will support 3-phase. If the German car companies + Ford + GM announce support of the Mennekes Combo, and it is not considered an SAE standard, then the article would seem misleading and/or inaccurate...

From the article:

The announcement is the most explicit indication yet from German automakers that they favor the design standard coordinated by SAE...

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Is that a correct statement or not?

Neither of them looks to me like the simple Mennekes (non-combo) we have seen so far. Did the shape of the European standard change?

EDIT: I'm referring to the illustration which Doug posted:

doug said:

OK, no prob. It's in this thread. The plan is SAE J1772 combo connector in the US, Mennekes combo connector in Europe. They will have the same communication for both AC and DC. Difference is the European version supports 3-phase AC. There is a unified form factor agreed for the charge port opening so that manufactures can just install the appropriate inlet for a particular region.

"Combo 1" is the SAE combo connector, "Combo 2" is Mennekes.
View attachment 3105

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Seems like the most likely explanation. So not really news then, just a new name for it.

Still not feeling full clarity yet...
New vehicle charging standard will juice up electric car market say manufacturers | Business | The Earth Times

...
The manufacturers have all signed up to use the HomePlug Green PHY system of communication with vehicles, a so-called 'smart grid' approach which attempts to reduce power consumption by targeting power generation and supply where and when it is most needed using information technology.
The seven strong group says that there are several gainers from their new deal: car builders will have a simpler job making new electrically charged vehicles; power suppliers too will have less to worry about as they try and please all vehicle owners, who say the group, will also benefit from a standardised system.
And, the new charging system does not render obsolete those which have gone before. Users of two previously separate standardised systems in Europe and America will be able to plug their vehicles into the new system...

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Perhaps the original "source article" that hasn't been digested, interpreted, and regurgitated by other reporters:
Seven Auto Manufacturers Collaborate on Harmonized Electric Vehicle Fast Charging Solution -- DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --

• Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States
• The system is a combined charging approach that integrates all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station
  ...
  
  This allows electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen can share the same fast charging stations.
  ...
  
  Automakers point to the success of Level 1 and Level 2 (for 220V charging in the U.S.) as an example of how standardization will increase the adoption of electric vehicles and increase customer satisfaction. The harmonized electric vehicle charging solution is backward compatible with the J1772 connector standard in the U.S. Backward compatibility also has been achieved in Europe where the system is based on the IEC 62196 Type 2.

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So, perhaps redundant if you really filter through this thread, but : It sounds like the agreement is really just about the DC fast charge signaling. The slower AC charging would still use the "regionally appropriate" (e.g.: 1 phase for USA, 3 phase for Europe) sub-connector on the car side.

Other articles saying that all these German car companies have agreed to use the SAE standard seems very misleading. It makes it sound like they plan to use J1772 one-phase globally, which I don't see indicated in the original article. Tomsax - hopefully you are reading all this - does it sound to you like the agreement may be different than what you were first lead to believe?

Could it be we end up with just a two pin cable (with PLC signaling) and the DC fast chargers just have an empty shell and/or omit the legacy AC section altogether?

doug said:

Nothing really new here, I'm more curious what signaling scheme they're using. I would prefer they reuse the control pilot signal rather than using PLC (Power Line Communication). But from that ACEA position paper we discussed above seems like they're going with PLC...

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Yes, it does seem that they (the 5 or 7 member companies not necessarily representing everyone in the industry) have agreed to go with PLC... not control-pilot, nor some sort of separate CAN like thing à la CHAdeMO.
I would guess that Tesla intends to offer PLC on their new Model S port too.
But, CHAdeMO doesn't use it, right? So I would guess that any CHAdeMO to/from everyone else will need some sort of PLC transceiver. (In other words, I doubt the LEAF does PLC signaling on its' DC port natively...)

Reposting an edited version of this image since some seem confused by it:



Combo 1 (US):




Combo 2 (Europe):

So, again summarizing, I think today's 'agreement' was something like this:
5 manufacturers (which could be counted as 7 if you include subsidiary divisions) agreed to:
#1: Use a standardized signalling protocol for high speed DC charging. (PLC / carrier on the actual power pins )
#2: Use a standardized cutout on their chassis so they don't have to make different chassis for North America vs Europe even if they will use different charge port types there.

As I search for more detail, I find article after article which seems to have mis-interpreted that news and jumped to wrong conclusions.
People were hoping for one global plug/socket standard that would make everyone happy, and so the news got some wishful thinking happening.

Here is yet another example:
Auto Manufacturers Agree on Standardized Electric Vehicle Fast Charging - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

Seven American and German auto manufacturers have agreed to support one, single, standardized approach to fast-charging electric cars. This agreement eliminates one more obstacle in making electric cars more accessible to the car buying and traveling public.
It means current owners and prospective buyers of electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids have the owners the added comfort of knowing they can charge at any so-called Level 2 charging station. Before this agreement, an EV owner had no way of knowing if the charge port they were pulling up to was compatible with their vehicle.

...

The standardized approach means all seven companies would use the same port - or plug - to fast-charge electric and PHEV vehicles in Europe and the United States...

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The above wording would lead one to believe that all new European EVs from those companies would be able to plug directly into any J1772 EVSE they find as they drive around.

Nissan seems to be on none of those lists either.

doug said:

Reposting an edited version of this image since some seem confused by it:

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When I look at the photos of Combo 1 and Combo 2, one appears rectangular and the other triangular. So it seems they just have a similar size, not even a common outer shape.

Norbert said:

Nissan seems to be on none of those lists either.

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Yes, from the same story I just linked:
Auto Manufacturers Agree on Standardized Electric Vehicle Fast Charging - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

...The agreement by top American and German manufacturers to standardize electric car charging systems is sure to put pressure on Japanese manufacturers to join the club...

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TEG said:

So, again summarizing, I think today's 'agreement' was something like this:
5 manufacturers (which could be counted as 7 if you include subsidiary divisions) agreed to:
#1: Use a standardized signalling protocol for high speed DC charging. (PLC / carrier on the actual power pins )
#2: Use a standardized cutout on their chassis so they don't have to make different chassis for North America vs Europe even if they will use different charge port types there.

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Not so fast. We really need a primary source here...

Regarding #2, it was recommended by the ACEA last month, but I'm not sure today's agreement said much about the "cutout". My sense is it was primarily about the signalling.

Regarding #1, did they actually say anything about PLC?
The only real detail I've seen is "The manufacturers have all signed up to use the HomePlug Green PHY system of communication with vehicles." But the ACEA agreement last month said, "Concentrate all efforts on of IEEE 1901 Profile Green PHY on CPLT/PE to be operational as soon as possible..."
Assuming Profile Green PHY and HomePlug Green PHY are the same or similar, CPLT/PE means communication is done using the pilot pin and ground, not the power lines.

So like I said, that the SAE J1772 combo and the Mennekes combo would use the same signaling was completely expected and not exactly news. What is/would be news is which signaling scheme they actually agreed upon. I haven't looked hard, but have yet to get a clear indication.

TEG said:

As I search for more detail, I find article after article which seems to have mis-interpreted that news and jumped to wrong conclusions.

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You shouldn't be surprised. This happens all the time. I'm stating the obvious, but when reading popular articles about science and technology, you have to parse though the author's non-specialized understanding and laymen terms to figure out what's actually going on. I'd think something similar applies here. Thing is, everything so far has been light on actual details.

Oops, nevermind. Perhaps I should have been able to tell by the name HomePlug. HomePlug Green PHY specifically uses PLC.

https://www.homeplug.org/tech/whitepapers/HomePlug_Green_PHY_whitepaper_100614.pdf

Would not have been my preference. Noisy power lines for all!!

2 to 30 MHz... well they could still do that over the pilot signal which is PWM at only 1kHz (I think). Yeah, we need actual details.

doug said:

You shouldn't be surprised. This happens all the time.

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Yes, I know - but today's examples seem particularly egregious and may have even involved some people who usually know better.

Another re-interpretation of the same press release:
7 Makers Adopt Standardized Electric Car Charging In Europe

The rumblings of dissent in Europe about different electric car charging standards could now be drawing to an end.

For the past few years fans have been worried that electric cars could have a mobile phone-like situation with different plugs for every different manufacturer and different charging options for each.

Now, seven carmakers in Europe - Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have jointly agreed to support a harmonized, single-port fast-charging system, shared with the United States.

Not only will the charging connectors be identical for all electric vehicles, but all seven manufacturers will also use HomePlug GreenPHY as the shared communication protocol to help integrate the cars with smart grids in the future.
...
...backward compatibility with the J1772 standard in the U.S. is seen as an example of how standardization is good for the electric car market, reassuring customers that they can charge wherever they are.

Soon, European electric car buyers could finally have the same reassurance.

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HomePlug info:
https://www.homeplug.org/tech/whitepapers/HomePlug_Green_PHY_whitepaper_100614.pdf

TEG said:

Auto Manufacturers Agree on Standardized Electric Vehicle Fast Charging - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

...The agreement by top American and German manufacturers to standardize electric car charging systems is sure to put pressure on Japanese manufacturers to join the club...

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Getting the Japanese to agree may be tough given they've just doubled down on CHAdeMO and have first mover advantage.

There may be signaling and signaling. My understanding of the SAE announcement a few months ago was that they decided to put a specific protocol for Smart Grid communication on the DC pins. This is consistent with the description of HomePlug Green PHY above. That doesn't necessarily mean that the charging protocol itself (the communication between car and charger) is done over the DC pins as well, and I would so far expect that to still happen over the pilot signal.

So, as far as I can tell, the situation is:

- The necessary size of the charge door has been determined such that it can be used for both Mennekes-combo and SAE-combo plugs (which simplifies manufacturing the car bodies)

- the smart-grid communication on the DC pins is "HomePlug Green PHY" for both Mennekes-combo and SAE-combo (which simplifies building and programming the electronics)

- when the reports talk about something that sounds like a unified connector, that only means that both Mennekes-combo and SAE-combo each have AC and DC on a single connector. But Mennekes and SAE are still different. So this is nothing new for us.

- Although it isn't completely certain, it appears that the US manufacturers GM and Ford will use Mennekes-combo in Europe, and that the german manufacturers Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche und Volkswagen will use SAE-combo when selling in the US. Apparently it is possible to use Mennekes without supporting 3-phase, so it is't clear yet whether all GM and Ford cars will support 3-phase in Europe, but I'd guess over time they will, though less certain that they will do so from the beginning.

Major Automakers Agree on New Quick-Charge EV Standard | TheDetroitBureau.com

...Notably, Japanese makers like Nissan have not signed on with the consortium. Nor have several ambitious new start-ups, including California based Tesla Motors and Fisker Automotive. The former is about to launch a 7-passenger sedan, dubbed the Model S, while Fisker recently began selling its new Karma plug-in hybrid...

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Automakers will combine on electric vehicle charging system - latimes.com

...The system will use a common vehicle inlet/charging connector and will have a standard electronic method for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station. This will allow electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen to share the same fast charging stations...

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Do we assume "common charging connector" applies to just the DC pins? (since we assume the main body will still be J1772 for NA, Mennekes for Europe)
And what does it really mean when they say that all these vehicles can share the same fast charging stations? Assuming Mennekes based Combo in Europe does that mean that no one will be permitted to install an SAE (J1772 based) combo fast charging station anywhere in Europe? We do know that some (non DC combo) J1772 EVSEs are already getting installed in Europe.
Perhaps these articles should go a little further to clarify that there will be one connector standard for North America, and a different for Europe and the agreement / intention is for all manufacturers to provide a regionally appropriate connector on vehicles they sell in that area. Basically agreeing not to confuse things by bringing "foreign standards" "across the pond." And, yes, this sends the message "CHAdeMO should stay in Japan", but it may not be enough to convince Nissan/Mitsubishi/... to change direction now.