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19" and 21" Tire Wear (informal) Survey

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by lolachampcar, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    #1 lolachampcar, Jul 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
    There is a lot of guessing going regarding the wear being experienced by owners with 21" wheels. Can you please post your rear tire inside shoulder wear experience providing ViN, miles, driving style and tire (Conti or Mich).
    The following is from a thread I started over on the TM forum. I'll try to keep both threads current.

    For those not familiar with camber, here is what 2 degrees of negative camber looks like in pictorial form looking from the rear an NO tire sidewall compliance. http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Alignment/camber%20Model%20(2).pdf

    New Continentals have 8mm tread depth
    New Pilots have 7.5mm tread depth


    High Wear
    lolachampcar 4288 800 miles Pilot 20% inside shoulder normal to mildly aggressive driving
    JohnnyMac 1400 miles Continentals 7mm outside and 6mm inside conservative driving with some sprints
    rodneynelson 5000 miles Continentals tires replaced for wear
    mferrazano 2864 1600 miles replaced both tires and aligned by Tesla
    Theresa 913 8500 miles cord showing on inside SC says toe is out (Rear Camber -1.8L -2.3R) Toe way out
    rdaicanto 12780 730 miles Pilots early wear suggests 6-7K life Max Regen
    Schlermie 27xx 6200 miles Continentals Rear 20% outside / 92% inside down to wear bars Moderate driving
    sergiyz sig474 8400 miles Continentals rears replaced as they were down to the cord
    carrerascott 5500 miles Continentals rears showing cord at 5500 miles
    Jason S 10000 miles replaced (assume 21") Continentals Car found to have toe out
    DJ Frustration 6000 miles 3/32" remaining on the inside
    telsaguy P85 4000 miles (on 21s) 21" Continentals noticeable wear on the inside
    rdalcanto P85+ 1400 miles 6/32 inner 8/32" outer alignment done at 7/32" inner wear
    JohnnyMac 1500 miles inside down 25%
    JaneW Continentals 4365 miles tires replaced - almost corded on inside of rear "fairly aggressive driving"
    majgill 11700 tires replaced
    FlasherZ S1049 4500 rears replaced






    Normal Wear
    Carefree 5430 4000 miles Michelins even wear on rear with normal driving
    Keith72 4283 2000 miles Continentals even wear mostly tame driving
    wormhole 45xx 5700 miles Continentals normal wear normal driving (339 WHr/Mile lifetime)
    DC 1400 miles even wear (alignment just performed)
    bradslee 2874 2400 miles Continentals even wear normal driving
    Brian.S 1856 6200 miles Continentals even wear normal driving
    Mark2131 1573 12150 miles Continentals even wear with slight cupping on inside normal driving with occasional flogging
    TikiMan 14,500 miles Continentals slight cupping on rears before rotating to front a@ 10K miles
    admjr 10843 1,500 miles Pilots slightly aggressive driving with no signs of wear
    Velo1 7000 miles normal wear with rotation at 3500 and 7000 - alignment checked good
    nickjhowe 2298 3000 miles Continentals 6.0-6.3 inside and 7.0-7.3 outside max regen
    dennis DCWitt 6276 4200 miles Pilots 7mm front / 6.3mm rear even wear
    rochec 6530 5100 miles Pilots normal wear
    mferrazano 2864 5200 miles even wear (after alignment, see above)
    drp 11000 miles reasonable life left (rotated at 5800 miles) mild driving max regen
    VEnUB Sig127 11000 miles 7mm/2mm out/in tires replaced for sidewall damage (potholes)
    DSM363 8800 miles (rotated at 3000) Depth In/Out (mm) Front 4.9/5.4 4.5/5.5 Rear 3.8/5.5 4.2/5.2 replaced at 10,200 miles with ~4mm outside/3mm inside tires
    buzzbuzz 02xx 16000 miles Continentals (rotated at 6000) measured at 12,500 7/32" or 5.5mm all the way around normal driving style (expecting 25K from the tires)
    NKYTA 1842 5000 miles Continentals Average driving plus test rides (LR inner showed wear but tracked down to toe) Max Regen
    sia 11239 1650 miles Continental 7mm I/O front and rear 338 Whr/mile
    Alex K araxara 3218 10,400 miles Continentals on track for 20K from tires (rotated at 7500) max regen 294 WHr/mile (complete tread measurements can be found pg 3 of ™ post)
    jjs 3082 9000 miles (just rotated) Continentals 331 WHr/mile max regen tires wearing reasonably even
    Chgd Up 25,250 miles (only 16K on these 21s) fronts at 6/32" replaced rears at 16,000 miles for cord showing 342 WHr/mile (lot of highway)
    Jason 3156 11,800 miles Continentals 8/32" except for inside rear 7/32" expecting 20K miles 344 WHr/mile max regen
    JonathanL 5000 miles on 21s with inside wear judging life to be 10k-12k miles
    Brad Holt s85 3387 12000 miles Continentals "hardly any wear"
    pilotSteve SigS 7500 mile service Continentals wear ok rotated at SC max regen
    Kauai Contentals good wear for 4500 miles minor pulling right at 9000 miles with alignment at 11500 and significant inside wear. 3500 miles since alignment with stabilized wear
    CnJsSigP Sig5xx 7700 miles Continentals LF6.5,6,6 RF6.5,6,6 LR7,7,6 RR7,7,6 mm rotated 6800 miles (rear toe roughly 1/16" total)
    Cenarius P85+ 3500 miles 21 Pilots 6/32 inside and 7/32 outside both rears spirited and commuting
    Andrew Wolfe S440 7700 miles 21" Continentals 7/32" on all four Moderate/Gentle 334 WHr/mile
    ISF 1933 9600 miles 21" Continentals rotated at 4700 LF6/6/5 RF 6/6/5 LR6/7/5 RR5/6/5 out/mid/in
    AIMc P85+ 2300 miles 21" Pilots 8/8/7 both rears out/mid/in




    19" Owners with (tire) issues
    Tommy 18600 replaced all four for inside shoulder wear. Rotation at 6K so two with 12K on rear and two with 6K on rear. 12K pair were bald on the inside shoulder.
    JakeP 4996 5000 miles 4-5/32" rear and 8-9/32 front
    Only Trons S85 8404 3300 miles 19" RSAs 9/32+ on all four tires max regen air sue 292 WHr/mile
    timbers S85 5300 miles 19" 9/32 on all four tires 313 WHr/mile
    Todd Burch S85 1653 11,300 miles 19" rears down to 3/32 on inside
    mmx P85 2900 miles 19" wearing evenly

     
  2. AlMc

    AlMc 'Senior Moments' member

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    Bump. Thanks lolaC
     
  3. Schlermie

    Schlermie P4932 - Delivery: 12/22

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    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Mileage: 6200 miles
    Tires: 21" Continentals from factory
    Inside shoulder wear: -92% (Down to the tread wear indicators )
    Outside shoulder wear: -20%
    VIN: ~2700
    Driving Style: Moderate (340 Wh/mi lifetime with a 760 ft elevation change during daily commute)
    Replacing rear tires tomorrow
     
  4. hoopty_yo

    hoopty_yo Member

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    Does anybody happen to know the rear camber spec? I'm just curious as I have aligned many a Mercedes or BMW that the customer complains of only getting 20k out of a pair of tires. 2.5 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber is not uncommon mixed with a low profile sidewall that doesn't deflect much equals terrible tire life but great handling. Most if not all these cars were grocery-getters that will probably never be pushed to their limits. I hardly ran across a car that had an available adjustment, so this fix is usually a $500 kit for each end of the vehicle to provide adjustment. Anybody know how the adjustments are made on the Model S or if there are any?
     
  5. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    It's non-adjustable on the Model S. The only way is to replace parts with a kit. Someone has already done so and described the process in another thread.
     
  6. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    MS rear camber is about negative 2 in the rear (mine was -1.9 left and -2.4 right) at standard ride height. I calculated a .4 degree increase in (negative) camber with a 2" drop.

    Only toe is adjustable in the rear unless you count "bolt slop". I had to do longer upper links to remove a degree of negative camber.
    New Upper Rear Model S Suspension Arms

    Lastly, I believe Tesla designed in the negative camber to help comply with stability control regulations. There is a brutal compliance test that consists of hooking a steering device to the car which yanks the wheel side to side a time and a half to simulate an emergency avoidance maneuver. The car needs to survive this without swapping ends and camber in the rear helps accomplish this.
     
  7. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Conti DWs new from factory
    8800 miles and rotated tires front to back on same side at 3,000 miles but haven't had alignment checked yet

    tread depth in mm (Inside tread/outside tread)

    Left Front
    4.9mm/5.4mm

    Right Front
    4.5mm/5.5mm

    Left Rear
    3.8mm/5.5mm

    Right Rear
    4.2mm/5.2mm

    Good article from tirerack.com saying to think about replacing at 3mm for wet traction
     
  8. buzzbuzz

    buzzbuzz Member

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    FWIW, I'll reply here. I don't check my own tread...I have service do it, so my measurements are in /32, not mm. I've rotated at 6,000 miles, and again at my annual at 12,500 miles. I'm currently at approximately 16,000 miles. But, just to throw another data point out there:

    last measurement: 7/32 on all four (recommended change around 3/32)
    tires: Continentals new from factory
    VIN: S002xx
    Driving style: normal, with occasional hard cornering on freeway on-ramps :)...lifetime wh/mi is about 348. My S is non-performance.

    I will check my tread again at 18,500 (roughly) when I have the tires rotated again. My current projection is my set should last me about 25,000 miles.
     
  9. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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  10. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    I am not in the 21" club, however I am posting my real 19" tire life that might add some additional insight into tire tread life expectancy be it 21" or 19". In short, excessive inside tire wear is not limited to only the 21" tires. At 18,600 miles all four tires were replaced due to excessive inside wear. Tires were rotated at 6k mile intervals which meant that 2 tires had 12k miles as rear tires and 2 tires had 6k miles as rear tires. The tires with the 12k miles were bald from the shoulder of the tire to about 2" on the inside tread. From looking at the rest of the tread (center to the outside) I think I could have gotten 30k miles of tire life had the tread worn evenly. Given the rapid inside wear that occurs to the tires being on the rear, I am rethinking rotating the tires. I am not going to rotate until the rear tires need replacement, than I will move the front tires to the rear and replace the front with 2 new tires. I am thinking this strategy will result in always having good tire tread on the front tires and may save $ by not having to purchase 4 tires at a time.
     
  11. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    Tire wear is real but not universal (judging by forum response only).

    Tire rotation does seem to allow an owner to use the outside shoulder of the tires. Moving a tire with wear on the inside shoulder from the rear to the front allows the front to put more pressure and thus more wear on the outside shoulder of that tire (because the inside is worn down). I did not say that very well; does it make sense?
     
  12. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    #12 Tommy, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
    Makes sense. In my case, while I could have moved the front tires to the rear, they also had balding beginning to show on the shoulder (they had been on the rears for 6K miles already). I probably could have gotten 3k to 6k more miles on them, however I wanted the piece of mind knowing I have good tread and not have to worry about constantly monitoring them or the risk of a blowout. That is why I replaced all four tires and why I am rethinking the rotation strategy even though in theory it seems like rotating tires is the correct action to take. I think what messes up all this rotating tires is there is too much wear on the inside when the tires are on the rear to make much of a difference once they are put on the front. Basically the damage has been done and rotation isn't going to help. The exception to this would be if one could rotate every 2k/3k miles, but who has time to do that?
     
  13. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    #13 lolachampcar, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
    My car did not have 19s so I do not know the answer to this question. Are the 19s asymmetrical in design? If they are not labeled "outside" then they are not and can be rotated across the rear of the car. This requires dismounting and remounting but will allow you to use ALL the tire.



    Mods
    Please add (and 19" owners welcome to post as well)
     
  14. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    The Goodyear's are asymmetrical and are labeled "Side Facing Inward" for mounting instructions; so no getting extra life out of these tires using the above method.
     
  15. JakeP

    JakeP S P4996 / X P6028

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    This is a cross-post, but I had another question on the 19", regarding whether you can even rotate from rear to front, on the same side:

    Question on front/rear rotation of 19" wheels. I am hitting 5,000 miles and checked my tread depth, already showing only 4-5/32 on the rear, 8-9/32 on the front. I was thinking I could rotate rear to front, but then I saw in the safety manual that the 19" wheels are actually 8" wide in front, and 9" wide in the rear (though the tires are all the same width). The 21" wheels are all identical. Does the difference in 19" width mean I cannot rotate the rears to the front? And by extension I will just need to replace the rears twice as often?

    I was hoping this would be a simple thing I could do myself, but it is turning into an opportunity to see if the Columbus ranger service would like to bring me a P+ loaner while they rotate, align and balance my tires!
     
  16. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    As long as you turn all four tires on the wheels, there really is no problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You want the tires with the deepest tread on the rear, not the front.
     
  17. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    #17 Tommy, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
    To be sure I understand this correctly, the "Side Facing Inward" would be mounted to the outside on all four tires. I could do that if Tesla & Goodyear give their blessing, however in our litigious society there's a snowball's chance that would happen.

    Michelin uses the term "worn tires" in the example; not sure if 12k miles on a tire constitutes "worn", which is what the fronts would have if the rears are only providing 12k usable miles. And by their example, we should be changing the rear tires well before the wear indicator is worn if indeed the rear tires should have more tread than the fronts.

    Added:

    I know Costco will only put 2 new tires on the rear, however after 3k/5kmiles they will rotate the 2 tires rear to front so maybe it's only an issue when a tire is brand new that the loss of traction comes into play.

    The recommendation of new tires always on the rear axle is due to hydroplaning concerns(reportedly as little as a puddle can cause it) and that loosing control of the rear tires is more dangerous than loss of front wheel control. Now knowing that in as little as 6k miles, my rear tires have significant less tread than my front tires would seem to dictate that rotation occur even more frequently to keep the tread wear between all 4 tires even.
     
  18. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    There's no reason why they shouldn't. The asymmetrical design is because usually there is more wear on the outside rather than the inside so the outside is built up. There's zero safety problem as long as all four tires are mounted the same way.
     
  19. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    jerry33,
    I was told by a tire engineer that the asymmetrical tread patter provided more grip under side load by having less rain groove area on the outside the tire. This design had the added benefit of requiring more tire consumption as the inside would wear in high negative camber situations and the asymmetrical quality prevent owners from swapping side to side. That same engineer went on to say the tire will do just fine with the "inside" on the "outside" and this has proven to be the case for me. I have routinely swapped tires across the back of the car (requiring dismount and remount of both tires) to use the entire contact patch. The key is to do it at just the right amount of wear so that the whole tire is done at the same time. What I have been unwilling to do it rotate the tires such that they spin in the opposite direction.

    Tommy,
    As for the litigious nature of current society, I continue to rely on my own judgement and try not to participate in that part of society. Sure, you have to be aware of the risks but I do not subscribe to the "everything is someone else's fault and I must be compensated" philosophy and refuse to live my life in fear of it. It's worked so far :) When it stops working, I'll chalk it up to natural selection.
     
  20. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Your tire engineer friend is correct. He's saying the same thing that I am. (We must have gone to the same tire engineering schools :)

    That is an unfortunate piece of FUD left over from when the North American tire manufacturers were trying to stem the tide of radial tires.

    The only time it's correct is if you have "casing directional" tires. These tires have the splices set in such a way that running them in the opposite direction could cause the splice to come apart. These tires are marked with directional arrows (and they are different from the "tread pattern" directional arrows). Mostly "casing directional" tires are DOT approved race tires. If they are both "casing directional" and asymmetrical, there will be two types of tires per four tire set (an A and a B tire). Very few tires are made that way. (If you have a set of these tires, the arrows will point towards each other at the top of the tire when mounted on a RWD car. They will point away from each other when mounted on a FWD car.)

    For the FUD, think of this this way:

    The hypothesis is that a tire takes a set due to either acceleration or braking torque and that changing the direction of rotation causes the set to go in the other direction which leads to the tire self-destructing.

    So if we have an RWD car the set on the fronts comes from braking and the set on the rear comes from acceleration. If you picture the radial cords moving (which is what the hypothesis states) they move to the right on the rear wheels and to the left on the front wheels.

    If the hypothesis were correct, then the one thing you couldn't do would be to rotate tires front to back because that would change the set of the tires and cause self-destruction. However, as many car manufacturers show front to back rotation and tires haven't self destructed because of it, the hypothesis is disproven. Any method of rotation will work.

    All that said, if a passenger car tire remains in the same position for 70,000+ miles, any change is likely to be a problem as the tire is just about at the end of it's life.
     

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