200 vs 400amp service

[Manzacoty]

Hi all - just wanted to get some opinions about the service to a new home we are building. Standard is 200amp service but I can upgrade to 400amp for $600. It’s a no brained right? I have a HPWC and my S85 has dual chargers so I will be pulling down 80 amps (on occasion). Other car is an ICE but hopefully we’ll be all electric soon.

I could deff get away with 200 amps today (our current house has 200) but for the future probably makes sense to go with 400.

Am I missing something or wasting money?

 

[Saghost]

Talk to the local utility about what they charge. Is there a higher monthly connection fee?

If the $600 today is the only cost, I think you're right that's it's a no brainer; if it's going to make your electric bill 10% higher forever, you'll have to think about whether you're getting value to match.

 

[appleguru]

No briainer to me, do it!

 

[Manzacoty]

Talk to the local utility about what they charge. Is there a higher monthly connection fee?

If the $600 today is the only cost, I think you're right that's it's a no brainer; if it's going to make your electric bill 10% higher forever, you'll have to think about whether you're getting value to match.

Thanks - builder said he talked to the electric company and they don’t charge extra for the service. I find that hard to believe but I’m going to move forward and see what happeneds.

 

[Tam]

...Am I missing something or wasting money?

If you plan to keep your home for a long time, it's great to pay more to have more capacity.

It might cost you much more (thousands of dollars) in future if you want 200A now and then upgrade it to 400A later because utility might have sized the cabling and utility transformer for lesser 200A now and they might have to replace those for a future upgrade.

I think it's an excellent investment!

 

[TonyT]

Since your building you might want to check if your electric company has a cheaper rate for EV use only. If so rather than a larger service you can get 2 meters with 2 separate boxes and have cheap charging for your car(s).

 

[Manzacoty]

Since your building you might want to check if your electric company has a cheaper rate for EV use only. If so rather than a larger service you can get 2 meters with 2 separate boxes and have cheap charging for your car(s).

Great advice- I live in TX and have the ability to purchase electricity at wholesale rates. It’s TOU and rates often go to 0 or even negative at night.

 

[gilscales]

Listen your in Texas where everything is BIGGER! go with the 400A service haha, My house has a 200A main and I still needed a 60A sub panel upstairs, main box is full and maxed out with tandem breakers so depending on the size of the box even with a 400A service you still probably will add a sub panel upstairs, I just rewired a house with a 200A main, 70A sub on the second floor (house is 3 stories) to make wiring easier then we added a 100A sub to the garage, We only went with 200A main as the house is small (2100 sq. ft.) and energy loads are low (mini splits for heating and cooling plus all led lighting)

 

[Tam]

Since your building you might want to check if your electric company has a cheaper rate for EV use only. If so rather than a larger service you can get 2 meters with 2 separate boxes and have cheap charging for your car(s).

Good idea for non-solar system but I think if you ever think about zeroing out your electric usage with solar panels and battery storage, I think single 400A system is a way to go.

For Southern Edison rates:

Separate dedicated EV meter:
The lowest rates on the TOU-EV-1 plan are between 9pm and 12pm every day, all year.
9pm to 12pm: 13¢ per kWh
12pm to 9pm: 37¢ per kWh in Summer, 23¢ in Winter
Monthly Meter Charge: $2.76

Time-Of-Use D-B (without a neeed for EV meter):

Winter rate:

Summer rate peak= $0.37
Partial Peak=$0.17
Night time off-Peak=$0.12

So, even without a dedicated EV meter, regular TOU is good enough!

 

[gilscales]

I switched to TOU-D-B in the summer of 2015 and based on our energy usage we have saved an average of 30% on our monthly bill.
We have a large household and with the model 3 now our monthly usage is averaging out to approx. 2,500 kWh over the year, anyone who is using a large amount of energy in their home will be happy with TOU-D-B

I looked at my brothers bill in Oroville, CA, he is on PG&E and his TOU is not nearly as good, his average cost is over $0.23 a kWh and he is 10 min. from the hydro generation plant for the lake!

 

[HX_Guy]

Absolutely do the 400A service, especially at that price. I own a solar company and deal with electrical service/panels all day and thats a $3000.00 change out if you ever wanted to do it later. Depending on the size and loads of the house, you may or may not need the 400A service (probably do not need it if its optional, vs if the house needed it they would have to provide it) but I can tell you when it comes to doing solar, if you are thinking about it, the 400A will give you a lot more flexibility in what size system you can put on your house.

 

[Don85D]

The objective should be to get off the grid and not buy more capacity. With our solar array we feed into the grid during the day while driving the car and while the sun is shining then we charge the car at night when rates are lowest. The difference in rates makes an easy business case for solar on the roof.

On the other hand, if you have a machine shop hobby or other big load extra power might be a benefit.

I agree that doing the upgrade now is best and it may improve resale of the house in the future but we get by just fine with 200 amps service and spreading the loads over 24 hours.

 

[Joelgjr]

Listen your in Texas where everything is BIGGER! go with the 400A service haha, My house has a 200A main and I still needed a 60A sub panel upstairs, main box is full and maxed out with tandem breakers so depending on the size of the box even with a 400A service you still probably will add a sub panel upstairs, I just rewired a house with a 200A main, 70A sub on the second floor (house is 3 stories) to make wiring easier then we added a 100A sub to the garage, We only went with 200A main as the house is small (2100 sq. ft.) and energy loads are low (mini splits for heating and cooling plus all led lighting)

For those without an electrical understanding they may misinterpret this. A sub panel does not give you extra capacity! A 200amp main panel and a 60amp sub still only gives you 200amps, not 260. If anything you lose capacity because you need to account for enough of a buffer to cover the sub panel at full power. The exception is if you’re physically out of room for new circuits l, you can add more via a sub panel.

I had a 200amp panel and wanted to put in a 100 amp sub panel for my MS. My dryer, stove, and furnace are all gas. It was the northeast so AC is not used. It was a small 1500 sq foot house with minimal electrical needs. My entire use did not go over 100amps. I could not find an electrician willing to install the sub panel. All said 100 amps is too much on “only” a 200amp panel.

Long story short GET THE 400

 

[gilscales]

For those without an electrical understanding they may misinterpret this. A sub panel does not give you extra capacity! A 200amp main panel and a 60amp sub still only gives you 200amps, not 260. If anything you lose capacity because you need to account for enough of a buffer to cover the sub panel at full power. The exception is if you’re physically out of room for new circuits l, you can add more via a sub panel.

I had a 200amp panel and wanted to put in a 100 amp sub panel for my MS. My dryer, stove, and furnace are all gas. It was the northeast so AC is not used. It was a small 1500 sq foot house with minimal electrical needs. My entire use did not go over 100amps. I could not find an electrician willing to install the sub panel. All said 100 amps is too much on “only” a 200amp panel.

Yes maybe I should have clarified that, the sub panels are just used to get a distribution area into a far away place from the main panel and will provide you with extra breaker spaces but not extra capacity as that is solely limited by your main incoming service panel.

As a side note it seems that with the upcoming electrical requirements (2019 NEC) AFAIK the code will be that ALL breakers be of the arc fault/gfci type (currently limited to 15 and 20a circuits) this will put even more of a strain on capacity so that sub panels are the norm and not the exception when building or re wiring homes as one may need in excess of 40 to 50 breakers or more for an average home.

 

[David.85D]

For $600, I’d do it.

Just so you know what you’re getting, are you talking a single 400A panel or two 200A? Residential is often two 200A rather than a single 400A panel.

Minor difference, but having loads distributed across two panels makes future solar, sub panels, whole house generator, power wall, etc., more complicated.

 

[HX_Guy]

For $600, I’d do it.

Just so you know what you’re getting, are you talking a single 400A panel or two 200A? Residential is often two 200A rather than a single 400A panel.

Minor difference, but having loads distributed across two panels makes future solar, sub panels, whole house generator, power wall, etc., more complicated.

It's always a single 400A (with dual 200A mains) and sometimes there is a 200A sub panel coming off the 400A. Typically youre not going to have a 400A main, I dont even think they make sure a thing.

 

[SalisburySam]

Gotta got with the crowd here: 400amps for sure.

Reasons:
1- will be several times more expensive to get later, even if only 50amps or so and not even a 2nd 200, so “future-proofing”
2- safer, in that you can divide your circuits by load more easily. For example, more dedicated circuits for appliances, kitchen circuits that include toaster ovens, toasters, microwaves, and other counter appliances.
3- growth (consumption) of electrical devices in the home (Tesla Semi?)
4- troubleshooting ease (fewer circuits with lots of connections)

Only downsides I see are (1) extra $600 for service you may not need, and (2) if you’re considering at any point a whole house standby generator, the transfer switch will be 2x-3x the cost for 400amp with two 200amp panels vs. a smaller switch for one 200amp panel.

We re-wired our 1906 home a few years ago. It had been done a couple of times previously but lots of spaghetti wiring, odd circuits, switches to nowhere, only two circuits supporting the entire kitchen including appliances, and as we found out the grounding had broken/rusted loose. Working with our power company and a great local electrician, we had the power to our home buried in conduit, replaced all the outside load centers (there were 3 of different amperage supplying various parts of the home), upgraded to 400a on two 200a load centers, trenched 100a service to our detached garage and a new load center, replaced the system bonds and grounds, and all was done to today’s code. In addition, the power company had to replace the transformer (their expense) for the upgraded service level. Our motivation was to provide sufficient power for our 2012 Nissan LEAF’s charging station and run the rest of the garage plus a large margin for growth. Add the Model 3 four months ago and it’s all working just fine. At some point I may sell the LEAF and upgrade the J1772 charging station to a Tesla wall unit to get the 48amps to charge the Model 3. But I’m just fine for now.

TL;DR - Go for the 400!

 

[maximizese]

Lucky Ducky! I wish a 400A deal was available for me. My 200A panel was full (and messy) when I had a 4.8kW solar array installed. They added a 100A sub-panel because there was no space for the 50A EVSE line they were adding.

50A for the EVSE
50A for the AC
70A for the garage (previous owner ran a shop in the space)
30A for the oven
etc.

I have aspirations for radiant-heated floors and a steam shower...400A would be nice if some of those things were running at the same time.

 

[HX_Guy]

Lucky Ducky! I wish a 400A deal was available for me. My 200A panel was full (and messy) when I had a 4.8kW solar array installed. They added a 100A sub-panel because there was no space for the 50A EVSE line they were adding.

50A for the EVSE
50A for the AC
70A for the garage (previous owner ran a shop in the space)
30A for the oven
etc.

I have aspirations for radiant-heated floors and a steam shower...400A would be nice if some of those things were running at the same time.

Yeah those things are not happening on your 200A panel, at least not per code.

We have a steam shower and it has a 100A breaker.

 

[BigNick]

Gotta got with the crowd here: 400amps for sure.

Reasons:
1- will be several times more expensive to get later, even if only 50amps or so and not even a 2nd 200, so “future-proofing”
2- safer, in that you can divide your circuits by load more easily. For example, more dedicated circuits for appliances, kitchen circuits that include toaster ovens, toasters, microwaves, and other counter appliances.
3- growth (consumption) of electrical devices in the home (Tesla Semi?)
4- troubleshooting ease (fewer circuits with lots of connections)

Only downsides I see are (1) extra $600 for service you may not need, and (2) if you’re considering at any point a whole house standby generator, the transfer switch will be 2x-3x the cost for 400amp with two 200amp panels vs. a smaller switch for one 200amp panel.

We re-wired our 1906 home a few years ago. It had been done a couple of times previously but lots of spaghetti wiring, odd circuits, switches to nowhere, only two circuits supporting the entire kitchen including appliances, and as we found out the grounding had broken/rusted loose. Working with our power company and a great local electrician, we had the power to our home buried in conduit, replaced all the outside load centers (there were 3 of different amperage supplying various parts of the home), upgraded to 400a on two 200a load centers, trenched 100a service to our detached garage and a new load center, replaced the system bonds and grounds, and all was done to today’s code. In addition, the power company had to replace the transformer (their expense) for the upgraded service level. Our motivation was to provide sufficient power for our 2012 Nissan LEAF’s charging station and run the rest of the garage plus a large margin for growth. Add the Model 3 four months ago and it’s all working just fine. At some point I may sell the LEAF and upgrade the J1772 charging station to a Tesla wall unit to get the 48amps to charge the Model 3. But I’m just fine for now.

TL;DR - Go for the 400!

Ouch. My wallet is whimpering after reading that.