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2017 Investor Roundtable: TSLA Market Action

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I thought about that too, but don't know enough to do that.
okay bro there is no need to go too literal on 2013, there is nothing magical about 2013 vs 2017. in stock market all you need to make big money is to get the direction right and bet big on the sucker. everything else is conversation
that's all i am doing
keep things simple and prosper
$TSLA being over analytical never pays too many variables keep the big picture in mind and move from game to game never marry a stock
 
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I was thinking over the weekend about how assuming Elon's earlier projection of 500k in 2020 turned out to be too conservative. Combined with the company's under-the-radar announcement of "Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5," and that Giga1 could be ramped up to supply packs for 1.5m cars (but that they would use only 1m for cars and rest for storage business), I think four million cars from four Gigafactories in 2020, although admittedly seems nutty, is my base case.

Elon will build it if they come.


And they're coming in droves. Just look at the market share Model S and Model X quickly achieved in their respective niche segments. Model S achieved 35% in four years, and Model X is on track to reach similar level in just two years! And they both achieved it without Level 5 autonomy. Model 3 may be fully autonomous from the get-go and will benefit from Tesla's already stellar brand, vs. when Model S and Model X were built, some consumers and tier 1 suppliers were still skeptical of Tesla. But even if you apply even a fraction of 30-35% market share to Model 3, I believe you will see what I'm talking about. Model 3 is the only game in town for years to come.

I don't think people realize this yet, but I think the ICE car industry will come to a grinding halt when the Model 3 hits the roads. Once the Model 3 is fully autonomous, which I believe may be the big announcement in July, why would anyone ever buy any other car? I expect enough people to decide to hold off on any new car purchases until they can get their hands on a Model 3 that Tesla will be forced to revise their 2020 production target upward, once again.

Here's how I see the US car industry playing out in the next three years and beyond: How Will The US Car Industry Evolve In The Next Three Years And Beyond? - ValueAnalyst | Seeking Alpha
I would probably bet my entire TSLA stake that Tesla will NOT sell 4M cars by 2020.

Even 1 million cars is stretching it, IMO.
 
I would probably bet my entire TSLA stake that Tesla will NOT sell 4M cars by 2020.

Even 1 million cars is stretching it, IMO.

I agree, we'll have to see what demand for M3 looks like before we jump to conclusions. IMO 1 million cars in 2020 seems very reasonable. If M3 demand is off the charts and they speed up GF 3-4 buildout like they are doing now for M3, I think we can optimistically get to 4 million between 2022-2024 timeframe with MY, Truck and roadster in the lineup. Hitting the 4 million target would be equivalent to GM producing 7-8 million cars at 10% margins.
 
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I agree, we'll have to see what demand for M3 looks like before we jump to conclusions. IMO 1 million cars in 2020 seems very reasonable. If M3 demand is off the charts and they speed up GF 3-4 buildout like they are doing now for M3, I think we can optimistically get to 4 million between 2022-2024 timeframe with MY, Truck and roadster in the lineup. Hitting the 4 million target would be equivalent to GM producing 7-8 million cars at 10% margins.

Sounds like a sock eating contest is in order, for predicting the calendar year in which Tesla ships 1 million cars. @ValueAnalyst should go with 2019 or 2018!
 
Well let's say I want to drive from St George to North Rim Gramd Canyon, hike around for the day, then drive home....
nope not going to make it in any Tesla without added inconvenience. I love my S60 and Tesla but for quite some time there is still going to be a reason why a lot of people outside of cities will not buy one.

Let's say I go for a drive in my Tesla T1000 and kayak for two or three days. When I go to drive home in a truck that's been parked at the end of a nowhere gravel road 150 miles from home with vampire drain I am not going to want to sit at a supercharger for 20 minutes.

I was just at the end of nowhere gravel road in SE Utah. I left my Tesla for three days backpacking and drove home even more convinced that it is the best vehicle ever. Tesla is going to gobble up all sorts of market share with the pickup. A small solar panel to deal with vampire loss might be nice though.
 

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Although I am fully invested in Tesla and anticipate a surge in the stock price in the months ahead, if the US drops anything on North Korea, I will be out in a flash.

Me too.

I can’t find a link for it yet but despite constant interruptions by Charley Rose, former Deputy Director and Acting Director of the CIA was recently interviewed about North Korea providing a lot of news and insight for understanding the dynamics of Trump, Kim, and the Chinese. I take this is direct communication from the intelligence community to us, the viewing public.

Several items were new to me and not necessarily covered by other media.
  1. North Korea already has deployed an ICBM capable, we suppose, of launching a nuclear warhead against the West Coast of the continental U.S. Kim has not tested it, however, which is why “we think but do not know” “but must assume” he has this capability. There are two problems with testing it from Kim’s view: a) if it fails it betrays weakness and would no longer be a credible deterrent; b) if it were to succeed it would invite pre-emptive attack by the U.S. The moral: don’t expect a test of the big one.
  2. Kim fears or at least believes his regime is on shaky ground domestically—hence recent executions by rather spectacular means—and he believes the U.S. wants him removed so he must have nuclear weapons to deter the U.S.
  3. What he wants is to negotiate with the U.S., not for peace nor about weapons, but to get something from the U.S. as he did during the Clinton and most recent Bush administration. Obama was smart to just ignore Kim and not give him any ransom (my word) for negotiation.
  4. He will never give up his nuclear weapon, see above, but also needs the U.S. as an enemy to keep his population and military in line.
  5. China is more worried about so-called loose nukes if or when the regime falls than it is about Kim having nuclear weapons. China does have leverage over the North Korean economy but will not use it in the way Trump would like because of this concern for stability.
  6. In Morell’s view there is no way that we can get a military solution to this problem so the recent deployment of the carrier strike force is a mistake and just plays into Kim’s game to try to get something from negotiations. He strongly recommends going very tight with China; we cannot do it alone despite what Trump says. That has no credibility. Morell suggested we should have such great coordination with China that, privately, we jointly make military plans to handle the corralling of loose nukes, say, “like China covers the north and we have responsibility in the southern part of the country.”
  7. Kim is testing the administration but would test any new president. Provocations these days have nothing to do with Trump per se.
Also interesting, but really a no brainer, the PBS Newshour on the fifteenth interviewed an analyst in South Korea who when asked about the mood of people on the street said, “they are pretty calm about it, its nothing new. However, the general public would like the US to consult with their government more often, especially when deciding on issues like sending the naval flotilla.” [My words, but the sense of what she said.]
 
Well let's say I want to drive from St George to North Rim Gramd Canyon, hike around for the day, then drive home....
nope not going to make it in any Tesla without added inconvenience. I love my S60 and Tesla but for quite some time there is still going to be a reason why a lot of people outside of cities will not buy one.

Let's say I go for a drive in my Tesla T1000 and kayak for two or three days. When I go to drive home in a truck that's been parked at the end of a nowhere gravel road 150 miles from home with vampire drain I am not going to want to sit at a supercharger for 20 minutes. I am exhausted and just want to go home and shower off the poison ivy and campfire smoke. Again love my Model S and when Model 3 comes out my wife and I will be all electric but currently on into the 5 year future there will still be reasons for many people to not feel as I do about Tesla.

Self driving does not solve all the problems. I don't think it will drive on gravel roads or over low water bridges for quite some time. Has anyone driven an autopilot car up to a low water bridge? Does it drive right on thru the water? Does it know how deep it Is? How does it go charge for me while I kayak if it can't cross the bridge?

We're not so far from the point where every parking lot will have a couple of (slow) chargers. Max 5 years I think. Then your problematic scenarios won't be problematic anymore.
 
$TSLA after spending an entire evening researching I'm convinced that I'm about 2 make the greatest trade of my 19 year stock trading career
and I'm wondering what it is i should do it's so hard to keep the smile off my face
No mystery here, we all know what you should do:
- share your secret with AB
- change your username to TeaseTrader007 :p
 
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Well let's say I want to drive from St George to North Rim Gramd Canyon, hike around for the day, then drive home....
nope not going to make it in any Tesla without added inconvenience. I love my S60 and Tesla but for quite some time there is still going to be a reason why a lot of people outside of cities will not buy one.

Let's say I go for a drive in my Tesla T1000 and kayak for two or three days. When I go to drive home in a truck that's been parked at the end of a nowhere gravel road 150 miles from home with vampire drain I am not going to want to sit at a supercharger for 20 minutes. I am exhausted and just want to go home and shower off the poison ivy and campfire smoke. Again love my Model S and when Model 3 comes out my wife and I will be all electric but currently on into the 5 year future there will still be reasons for many people to not feel as I do about Tesla.

Self driving does not solve all the problems. I don't think it will drive on gravel roads or over low water bridges for quite some time. Has anyone driven an autopilot car up to a low water bridge? Does it drive right on thru the water? Does it know how deep it Is? How does it go charge for me while I kayak if it can't cross the bridge?

Please do yourself a favor and don't buy a Tesla. A person who is ignorant enough to wear themself out on a 180 miles non-stop drive just to go for a couple mile hike, then dumb enough to put themseself in danger by being expose to poison ivy (then to ignore ones health and NOT check themself into a hospital in the process), then negligently choose to drive home in their S60 without referring to autonomous driving while under duress--a person like this will have issues operating a mechanical pencil, let alone a car.

That's a lot of negligence and trouble for a hike wouldn't you say? Wearing yourself out before even reaching said hiking destination... Can't wait to see how far you would go just to pick up a burger.
 
Me too.

I can’t find a link for it yet but despite constant interruptions by Charley Rose, former Deputy Director and Acting Director of the CIA was recently interviewed about North Korea providing a lot of news and insight for understanding the dynamics of Trump, Kim, and the Chinese. I take this is direct communication from the intelligence community to us, the viewing public.

Several items were new to me and not necessarily covered by other media.
  1. North Korea already has deployed an ICBM capable, we suppose, of launching a nuclear warhead against the West Coast of the continental U.S. Kim has not tested it, however, which is why “we think but do not know” “but must assume” he has this capability. There are two problems with testing it from Kim’s view: a) if it fails it betrays weakness and would no longer be a credible deterrent; b) if it were to succeed it would invite pre-emptive attack by the U.S. The moral: don’t expect a test of the big one.
  2. Kim fears or at least believes his regime is on shaky ground domestically—hence recent executions by rather spectacular means—and he believes the U.S. wants him removed so he must have nuclear weapons to deter the U.S.
  3. What he wants is to negotiate with the U.S., not for peace nor about weapons, but to get something from the U.S. as he did during the Clinton and most recent Bush administration. Obama was smart to just ignore Kim and not give him any ransom (my word) for negotiation.
  4. He will never give up his nuclear weapon, see above, but also needs the U.S. as an enemy to keep his population and military in line.
  5. China is more worried about so-called loose nukes if or when the regime falls than it is about Kim having nuclear weapons. China does have leverage over the North Korean economy but will not use it in the way Trump would like because of this concern for stability.
  6. In Morell’s view there is no way that we can get a military solution to this problem so the recent deployment of the carrier strike force is a mistake and just plays into Kim’s game to try to get something from negotiations. He strongly recommends going very tight with China; we cannot do it alone despite what Trump says. That has no credibility. Morell suggested we should have such great coordination with China that, privately, we jointly make military plans to handle the corralling of loose nukes, say, “like China covers the north and we have responsibility in the southern part of the country.”
  7. Kim is testing the administration but would test any new president. Provocations these days have nothing to do with Trump per se.
Also interesting, but really a no brainer, the PBS Newshour on the fifteenth interviewed an analyst in South Korea who when asked about the mood of people on the street said, “they are pretty calm about it, its nothing new. However, the general public would like the US to consult with their government more often, especially when deciding on issues like sending the naval flotilla.” [My words, but the sense of what she said.]
I looked too but only found this, where that interview does not seem to appear yet. Latest is from Jan 30.
Mike Morell - Charlie Rose
 
I looked too but only found this, where that interview does not seem to appear yet. Latest is from Jan 30.
Mike Morell - Charlie Rose

I'll check it out on Monday.

Incidentally, the interview also touched on the previous day's first public statement by the new CIA director Mike Pompeo. Morell said the media focussed on his statement about Wikileaks but missed the most important part. The Director assured us the intelligence committee is now meeting daily with Trump who is "attentive, asking good questions, and I accompany the briefer each day." Morell kept saying, "everything's going to be all right." I'm not so sure of that but if true maybe the Donald is slowly growing into the job. Let's hope so, and Putin should as well.

I remember one news account early on in his administration Obama was reported to say when interviewing someone for a job "just remember, I'm smarter than you." If true, that's one of the dumbest things a smart person can say like when I tried to reform the prison system while teaching part-time at Folsom. (Just for the record, I wasn't incarcerated there at the time. Perhaps later.)
 
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I would probably bet my entire TSLA stake that Tesla will NOT sell 4M cars by 2020.

Even 1 million cars is stretching it, IMO.

Ok. I appreciate the frank response.

With which part of my forecast do you not agree? The following are the logical pieces in order:

1. Precedent. By the end of 2017, Model S and X will have achieved more than 30% US market share in their respective niche segments. Model S already achieved this in 4 years and Model X is on track to achieve it in less than 2 years, and that's including the six-month long ramp-up issues, which an optimist may reasonably assume out for Model 3 timeline. This acceleration from 4 years for Model S to 2 years for Model X should be noted, because it screams growing brand value of Tesla, but my argument does not rely on this assumption. In fact, I assume the opposite: a slowdown from less than 2 years for Model X to 3 years for Model 3. This is part of my "margin of safety."

2. Demand. Arguably Model 3 should achieve a larger market share for three primary reasons: (i) With Model S and X, Tesla and Elon Musk have already proven themselves as reliable innovators building consumer goodwill, which translates to higher brand value, which Model 3 will leverage in 2017/18; but more importantly, (ii) the lower ticket price of Model 3 vs. Model S/X will translate to higher relative global adoption due to the differences in purchasing power between the US and ex-US countries. In other words, if Tesla achieved more than 30% US market share with Models S/X, but the global market share achieved was say 5%, a reasonable assumption would be if Model 3 achieves the same 30% US market share, that should translate to ~10% global market share; and most importantly (iii) I expect Model 3 to be marketed as fully autonomous from the get-go, which would make the phrase "game-changer" a significant underestimation. I don't think even the bulls truly comprehend what this really means, but my perspective is that a fully autonomous car approximates about $15,000 lower effective price ($20/hr avg earnings x 5hr/w saved not driving x 50 working weeks x 3y avg holding period, which are all conservative assumptions individually, which makes the compound calculation stupidly conservative), all else equal, excluding the cool factor. Having said all this, I projected only 5% US market share 3% global market share for Model 3 in three years. For reference, take a deep breath and make sure you're seated, a base-case projection that incorporates everything I discussed in this paragraph would add up to at least 30% US market share and 10% global market share in two years, or ~6 million Model 3's in 2019. An optimistic case, could assume 35-40% US market share and 15% global market share in one year, and a halo effect to Model S and X, or 9+ million Model 3's in 2018 with incremental demand on Model S and Model X. TLDR: demand for 4m all-electric fully autonomous Model S/X/3/Semi/others in 2020 is there.

3. Supply. When Tesla first announced the Gigafactory in 3Q14, it projected 500,000 cars in 2020. Shorts said impossible. Two years later in 2016, Elon pulled the 500,000 projection to 2018. Shorts said impossible. Elon last year doubled his original Giga1 2020 capacity to 1.0m, then increased it further to 1.5m but said they would use the third half million for Tesla Energy. Nobody cares what shorts say at this point. Then Tesla bought Grohmann solely for the purpose of creating "alien dreadnoughts." As far as I can tell from this timeline, 1.5m capacity forecast for Giga 1 does not include any improvements that can be reasonably expected from Grohmann acquisition. Arguably, the 1.5m capacity projection incorporates limitations that would reasonably come with designing something three years ago in 2014 and being constrained to make only incremental changes as you move through time, as opposed to designing Giga's 3/4/5 with the accumulated knowledge, innovation from Grohmann, easier access to capital, and a more reliable demand forecast. Keep in mind that Elon has repeatedly noted that he expects significantly more improvement in manufacturing of the product than the improvement Tesla has achieved with the product, which has been at least an order of magnitude as can be concluded just by looking at the fast and vast consumer adoption of a completely new product in a slow-moving automative industry with slow replacement rates. Having said all this, let alone further improvement, my projection of 4m cars in 2020 with four Gigafactories assumes a deprovement to 1m per Gigafactory. This is part of my margin of safety.

4. Capital. Tesla is no longer a pre-revenue company led by a guy that sounds nutty. It's now a company with unprecedented historical revenue growth, not only leading but dominating market share in the segments in which it competes, two proven successful products and third one with a long waiting list, led by a guy that sounds nutty. Further, I also expect lenders to soon start shying away from existing manufacturers, due primarily to declining used ICE car value estimates which back lease debt on balance sheets (think subprime crisis where declining home values backed mortgage debt, but on a smaller scale and more focused impact on the economy). This will free up capital to be lent to the only growing company in the industry at a cost of debt that Tesla has never enjoyed before. If the stock rises 50% in 2017, which is possible if the Model 3 ramp-up goes smoothly as so far seems to be, this would bring Tesla's market cap to $75 billion, so $5 billion non-convertible debt, which is not dilutive, at an interest rate of 8% or below, to fund the start of Giga 3/4/5 would keep debt-to-market-value-of-equity ratio to a very reasonable level. I expect the majority of Giga 3/4/5 cost to be financed using Model 3 gross profits, which I expect will grow significantly more than operating expenses due to operating leverage, throughout the next three years. This math excludes any gross profits from Tesla Energy, which is part of my margin of safety.

I know 4m in 2020 sounds crazy on the face of it, but when I break it down to its components like this, considering all the layers of margin of safety that I explained above, it sounds reasonable. This is why 4m in 2020 is my base case.
 
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