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2017 Investor Roundtable: TSLA Market Action

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Long-term long here, who's always wanted to accumulate more shares.

Does it seem likely to anyone else that the stock might be going to fall pretty hard in early July due to Tesla probably reporting a drop in S and X sales in Q2? It's tempting to sell some shares in the 325 range and see if I can then re-buy more around 300 or less, as the market goes through a short-term overreaction. Thoughts?
I won't offer an opinion about selling your shares, but have you considered deep-in-the-money options as an alternative to buying shares?

TSLA closed Friday at $325.14. The Jan 2019 $100 Call option was bid/ask $223.10/226.00 at the close. The options have essentially no time value and they trade in lock-step with the shares. Buying such options would allow you to control about 40% more shares with the same investment. (I used this options since it's easy to notice the lack of time value)

I really can't understand why only 346 contracts at this strike price have been consumated. Other nearby options have sold even fewer.
 
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I won't offer an opinion about selling your shares, but have you considered deep-in-the-money options as an alternative to buying shares?

TSLA closed Friday at $325.14. The Jan 2019 $100 Call option was bid/ask $223.10/226.00 at the close. The options have essentially no time value and they trade in lock-step with the shares. Buying such options would allow you to control about 40% more shares with the same investment. (I used this options since it's easy to notice the lack of time value)

I really can't understand why only 346 contracts at this strike price have been consumated. Other nearby options have sold even fewer.
Two things to note are:
1) the time value of the calls is very dependent on how much the stock price has moved recently. Only a couple of weeks ago I got some deep LEAPS for $170 strike with almost no time premium. And with correspondingly greater leverage.
2) usually you have to have a margin account to trade options. The margin rate on TSLA at my broker (ETrade) is currently 25%, so the impact on my available capital is actually LESS for me to buy shares than such deep LEAPS, since option contracts have to be 100% covered. The strike has to get much closer to the current market price before the LEAPS actually win on leverage.
 
Two things to note are:
1) the time value of the calls is very dependent on how much the stock price has moved recently. Only a couple of weeks ago I got some deep LEAPS for $170 strike with almost no time premium. And with correspondingly greater leverage.
2) usually you have to have a margin account to trade options. The margin rate on TSLA at my broker (ETrade) is currently 25%, so the impact on my available capital is actually LESS for me to buy shares than such deep LEAPS, since option contracts have to be 100% covered. The strike has to get much closer to the current market price before the LEAPS actually win on leverage.
Your $170 example is much more impressive...

I also use E-Trade, but don't use margin, so there are no extra fees.
 
Tesla fears the Osborne Effect precisely because people will think the Model 3 is almost as good as the S but only costs half as much.

Tesla is in a difficult position because the S is already lacking in creature comforts compared to other cars which cost $70k to $140k. Because of the lack of luxury interior, it will be difficult to differentiate the 3 from the S in many comparable factors which matter. We already know the 3 will have very good range, acceleration, and styling. So these are things it is close to the S on. Tesla's positional challenge is that they have very little they can downgrade from the S to the half-priced 3, because the S is already very spartan in terms of the interior and there isn't a whole lot that can be removed. It's safe to say that removal of the driver's instrument cluster is a pretty ham-handed attempt at finding something, anything, that can be removed to differentiate 3 from S.

It's very, very unclear at this time what effect the 3 will have on S/X sales. If the 3 really is 85-90% as good as the S for half the price, it will dramatically Osborne Effect the S because it will indeed serve as a replacement for the S for all intents and purposes. That being said, if Tesla is busy selling the 3 at a 10:1 ratio to the S, in the end it won't matter because revenue will be so much higher that it will easily offset sales declines in the S/X.

As much as I have been on the potential Osborn effect train, I started to think about it and what makes sense to me is that any Osborne effect would have already happened, because it cannot really happen July going forward because the wait time will be 12-18 months for people just coming into the sales cycle. What I mean is that if you put down a reservation a year ago, that is when the Osborne effect would have taken place for that person and 400,000 others. Now there have been and will continue to be reservations for the 3 and could be creating an ongoing Osborne effect more recently, but still fairly light because people reserving a 3 today won't get it for 12-18 months. No one who can afford a model S will wait that long, they will get an S. So no Osborne effect should be happening today.

We keep wanting to apply this idea if an Usborne effect, me included, but the more I think about it the less I feel it's the real issue. Tesla is clearly responding to something very real that they are seeing and they assume it is because the 3 is canabolizing the model S in some way and I think this is real because I think the model S used to sell to people who never in there life bought a luxury car and flat out wouldn't because they are not flashy and don't need that much car. But the allure of the best EV and potential, car on the planet, pushed them into an S. This explains how the S can have 40% market share for large luxury sedan, because it's in a class of it's own and really belongs in a category that doesn't yet exist. This does not make it less of a feat, because it's astounding. Quite the opposite. It just makes it hard to determine where growth will come from and how the 3 will impact the S.

Having dumped all of that, I think this all works itself out over the next 12 months and I see frenzied demands in the second half of 2018 with tax credits expiring. Tesla could move 300,000 S3X cars in that 6 month period. My thought is that Tesla is going to produce a lot of S/X cars over the next 7 months many is which won't sell until 2H2018. I don't know what makes production is but let's say 2500/w for S/X. 60 weeks or about 150,000 S/X over the next 13 months and last month or so and another 150,000 model 3s with most targeted at the us tax credits expiring 2H2018. The idea is to make out production to maximize savings for customers. They will continue to make out S/X through the year to catch up on foreign sales. After 2018, the issues with the 3 go away because people will be able to go but one when they want one with 10,000 a week being built 2019 on and 1 million a year by the end of 2020.

By then the S Will be at the point where replacement will start to kick in in volumes high enough to perpetuate growth is the brand.

In short, I don't know what Tesla is worried about but it's clearly real. I'm not worried about anything as demand is going to be at a frenzied pace next year and I mean model 3 reveal frenzied. And only one car will be available to buy off the lot, the model S. Maybe cpo. Hide and watch.
 
1. Why? How much do you expect next-gen Gigafactories to cost? How much time do you expect them to take vs five years for Gigafactory 1?
Not the one that you asked this question but my take on it is as follows: Elon has said that he now sees the factory itself as a product. They are looking at the throughput like they would a computer chip. He thinks there's a lot of room for improvement. I think subsequent Gigafactories will be much more effective than the current one.

It was when I heard this that I first decided to increase my tesla shares to what they are now.
 
On May 3 an agent at the Westmont, Illinois store informed me that the initial Model 3's would be delivered in this order:

1) Model S & X Owners
2) Tesla Employees
3) Residents of West Coast
4) North Americans Further East
5) Overseas

Since some here had been questioning this list order, yesterday I emailed Tesla NA Sales. A voicemail response arrived two hours ago from Manuel in Fremont. He said he wanted to be sure to give a good answer, and that #1 and #2 above should be reversed.
 
Bullish analysts like Jonas say 2000 cars, that is nuts as they could build those by hand in 6 months. Could see some parts holding things up or slowing ramp, but I think it's clear they learned there lessons with the X on the complexity of the design as it relates specifically to the production. No crazy fwd, no crazy back seats, less configurations initially.

Sorry the Osborne effect is all but guaranteed, I think the S 60 sales where mostly people extending themselves to afford a great electric car. The Osborne effect will be short lived as the buzz around Tesla after a successful launch of the 3 and the inevitability of the phase out of the tax incentives will cause a massive increase in demand for the S/X in the first half of 2018 before the tax credit gets cut in half about Midway through the year. I think Tesla will try to produce as many S/X in the second half as they can to be ready for that demand. No different then F/GM building cars for inventory only they will move faster then I think people realize because people new to Tesla who don't have a reservation will have to wait over a year with no hope of tax credits.

Tesla will more then likely continue to pull levers to differentiate the S from the 3. With the loss if the tax credits I don't see Tesla lowering the price of the S/X but instead see them adding value like free supercharging for life that follows the owner that they just recently announced. Faster charging for 2170 in the S/X that may not be available for the 3 initially? Maybe even plusher interior options and is course the mythical HUD/AR.

Osborne effect = 6 months 2H2017, production at full speed anyway for 1H2018 massive tax credit and model 3 success driven demand. Used car demand will also Spike when folks can't get the 3 for a year plus and opt for used S/X.
Tesla is building for the future. They get those M3 owners now, and with the crazy loyalty of Tesla owners, eventually some will move up to S or X. And BMW, MB, Audi and the lesser car companies will see their market share and their margins threatened even more as Tesla begins to shred the smaller sedan market. The main Osborne effect will be people holding off on replacing their baby BMW and Mercedes while they holdout for a Tesla. And the more people see Teslas out and about, the more demand will grow for Teslas. Are those new prospects going to wait more than a year for a 3? Or will they bump up to a MS or MX? So I agree that demand for pre-owned and base new will be great. Do you think many are going to trade in an S or X to downgrade to a 3? I honestly think they will be production constrained for at least a couple years on all models. And when the Y and pickup come out it will be crazy as most people will actually know what a Tesla is by then.

I had my X at yet another local public event today and for the first time I think as many people knew what a Tesla was as didn't. That is a major feat here in the middle of nowhere. Most had never seen one in person but they heard about Tesla, and most if not all had never seen the inside of one and were genuinely impressed. Yes there were a very few who said they would never buy an EV because of .whatever they could think of, but most said the only thing they had a problem with was the price of an X or S. But this area isn't on Tesla's radar as it is a generally low income area. A few older people wanted pictures with my car to send to their kids who told them all about Tesla and how much they want one. This is very different than my experience here over the past 16 months. Maybe I'm just re-inforcing my own personal biased viewpoint, but it was exciting for me. The future for Tesla is bright from what I can see. Now we just need Tesla to deliver the Model 3. At least they will be out before all those Tesla killers maybe show up in 2025. :eek:
 
1. Why? How much do you expect next-gen Gigafactories to cost? How much time do you expect them to take vs five years for Gigafactory 1?
Because for the first phase they were designing and building the equipment for the first time. Have you ever done anything as quickly the first time you did it?

I'm not sure how much faster or how much less it will cost but we should get a pretty good idea from the speed and costs of the remaining GF1 implementation.
 
As much as I have been on the potential Osborn effect train, I started to think about it and what makes sense to me is that any Osborne effect would have already happened, because it cannot really happen July going forward because the wait time will be 12-18 months for people just coming into the sales cycle. What I mean is that if you put down a reservation a year ago, that is when the Osborne effect would have taken place for that person and 400,000 others. Now there have been and will continue to be reservations for the 3 and could be creating an ongoing Osborne effect more recently, but still fairly light because people reserving a 3 today won't get it for 12-18 months. No one who can afford a model S will wait that long, they will get an S. So no Osborne effect should be happening today.

We keep wanting to apply this idea if an Usborne effect, me included, but the more I think about it the less I feel it's the real issue. Tesla is clearly responding to something very real that they are seeing and they assume it is because the 3 is canabolizing the model S in some way and I think this is real because I think the model S used to sell to people who never in there life bought a luxury car and flat out wouldn't because they are not flashy and don't need that much car. But the allure of the best EV and potential, car on the planet, pushed them into an S. This explains how the S can have 40% market share for large luxury sedan, because it's in a class of it's own and really belongs in a category that doesn't yet exist. This does not make it less of a feat, because it's astounding. Quite the opposite. It just makes it hard to determine where growth will come from and how the 3 will impact the S.

Having dumped all of that, I think this all works itself out over the next 12 months and I see frenzied demands in the second half of 2018 with tax credits expiring. Tesla could move 300,000 S3X cars in that 6 month period. My thought is that Tesla is going to produce a lot of S/X cars over the next 7 months many is which won't sell until 2H2018. I don't know what makes production is but let's say 2500/w for S/X. 60 weeks or about 150,000 S/X over the next 13 months and last month or so and another 150,000 model 3s with most targeted at the us tax credits expiring 2H2018. The idea is to make out production to maximize savings for customers. They will continue to make out S/X through the year to catch up on foreign sales. After 2018, the issues with the 3 go away because people will be able to go but one when they want one with 10,000 a week being built 2019 on and 1 million a year by the end of 2020.

By then the S Will be at the point where replacement will start to kick in in volumes high enough to perpetuate growth is the brand.

In short, I don't know what Tesla is worried about but it's clearly real. I'm not worried about anything as demand is going to be at a frenzied pace next year and I mean model 3 reveal frenzied. And only one car will be available to buy off the lot, the model S. Maybe cpo. Hide and watch.

I was (am?) one of those people that never bought expensive cars. My S was 3x the cost of the most expensive car I ever bought, and 6x the cost of the second most expensive one. When I bought the S, I thought it would be a one time thing, reverting back to cheaper cars like Model 3 in the future. But the S learned me to appreciate luxury stuff like air suspensions and fast 0-100 accelleration.
And although I have 2 Model 3 reservations, I'm already thinking of passing those cars on to the kids in a few years. And selling the AP1 S, since that will get no meaningfull updates anymore. Instead, I'm seriously thinking of replacing the S with an X when AP3 (the Jim Keller edition) is available, and a next gen roadster for me and my wife. This of course with a bit of help from my TSLA gains.
I seriously doubt I'm the only one with this in mind.
 
I was (am?) one of those people that never bought expensive cars. My S was 3x the cost of the most expensive car I ever bought, and 6x the cost of the second most expensive one. When I bought the S, I thought it would be a one time thing, reverting back to cheaper cars like Model 3 in the future. But the S learned me to appreciate luxury stuff like air suspensions and fast 0-100 accelleration.
And although I have 2 Model 3 reservations, I'm already thinking of passing those cars on to the kids in a few years. And selling the AP1 S, since that will get no meaningfull updates anymore. Instead, I'm seriously thinking of replacing the S with an X when AP3 (the Jim Keller edition) is available, and a next gen roadster for me and my wife. This of course with a bit of help from my TSLA gains.
I seriously doubt I'm the only one with this in mind.

I have it exactly the same. Before Model S, we have only had 5-7 year old Toyotas at 1/4-1/6 the cost of our model S.

Just sold out pre-AP1 Model S to finance a house expansion, instead of selling some of our TSLA shares and calls. :)
We have 2x model 3 on reservation. But would love another S og perhaps an X, with AP2 and free supercharging instead of the 3's. (find a nice used one in a few years). Now we have a Suzuki Swift and Mitsubishi i-miev. With two kids, I have realized these cars are to smal. :)
 
I was (am?) one of those people that never bought expensive cars. My S was 3x the cost of the most expensive car I ever bought, and 6x the cost of the second most expensive one. When I bought the S, I thought it would be a one time thing, reverting back to cheaper cars like Model 3 in the future. But the S learned me to appreciate luxury stuff like air suspensions and fast 0-100 accelleration.
And although I have 2 Model 3 reservations, I'm already thinking of passing those cars on to the kids in a few years. And selling the AP1 S, since that will get no meaningfull updates anymore. Instead, I'm seriously thinking of replacing the S with an X when AP3 (the Jim Keller edition) is available, and a next gen roadster for me and my wife. This of course with a bit of help from my TSLA gains.
I seriously doubt I'm the only one with this in mind.

One thing that is not often talked about is that the model 3 will likely handle better than the model S. Although not as quick, it will be lighter and more nimble.
 
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Do you think many are going to trade in an S or X to downgrade to a 3?

This was what I assumed Tesla was afraid of and the evidence I was working from was a conversation I had with my sales rep. When I bought my X. He said that a high percent of reservation holders had multiple and where owners of S/X already. I was speaking to him about keeping my reservation for the 3 and how that would bump me up the list and he said not as much as you might think because of all the other owners with multiple reservations.

My guess was that Tesla feared people trading down to a model 3 and some of that might happen but from just a tiny sample from this board, people are not looking to trade down and the cars are for extended family. I just don't know why Tesla can't just do a simple survey of existing owners and their intentions. I would assume we would know if they had because this board has such a good following of existing owners. The Model 3 tracker site could do a survey as well, wish they would. The guy is on TMC and I should just get off my lazy butt and just message him.

Any flood if trade downs would also be welcome because it would fill the CPO channel and those cars will move when people can get a 3, though I still don't see more then a small bump in the CPO market which seems to be supply constrained anyway.

I haven't analyzed the sale cycle enough to see how many Tesla's are coming off of leases each week just as the model 3 starts to come out. This could also be what is worrying them. A lower number of lease buyouts at the end of the lease caused by people teasing down. Has anyone who leases been contacted by Tesla to find out there intentions?

I have no doubt some group of current owners over extended themselves to get into an S and that group could be a decent size, maybe 200-300 people a week coming off leases as the 3 comes out? People who financed with little down would more then likely be to under water to sell as the 3 becomes available though that might not stop them. Either way, 300 extra CPO a week world wide is nothing compared to the exposure the 3 will garner. Those used cars will get soaked up fast and actually could be good for the resale market giving consumers a lot more choices which In turn will lead to happier owners and more likely to buy a Tesla again.

Tesla is concerned about something, it's clear by there recent actions related to down selling the 3. I am less concerned as the way I see it either the demand is real and a huge vacuum will be created by the successful release of the 3 where it will be really impossible to get and that will sell a lot of model S/X new and used. It's hard to gauge that demand but there is no reason to think the world isn't full of people who will over extend themselves to get into an S who do not already have a reservation. No reason to think the problem that is causing Tesla to worry won't continue on in perpetuity to the Y and beyond. As long as demand outstrips supply people will do whatever it takes to get a Tesla. That's why I'm am investor and I don't see it changing much over the next 5 years. Some completion will come in but I see it much like Apple vs Android. High margin vs. low margin. Not settling vs. settling. I'll take Apple's ~34% market share with ~90% of the bet profits any day and twice on Sunday.
 
some of us (me) have suspicions the articles are just for clicks and eyeballs and pennies per click

Nissan's Titan pick-up truck designer Randy Rodriguez joined Tesla, at ~18:55.

The video does raise an interesting issue concerning the potential conflict about allocation of M3 production capacity between USA and foreign markets in the six quarters following the 200,000 USA delivery milestone.

Also, the point about the value of a used M3 increasing as the credit phases down and out.
 
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Two things to note are:
1) the time value of the calls is very dependent on how much the stock price has moved recently. Only a couple of weeks ago I got some deep LEAPS for $170 strike with almost no time premium. And with correspondingly greater leverage.
2) usually you have to have a margin account to trade options. The margin rate on TSLA at my broker (ETrade) is currently 25%, so the impact on my available capital is actually LESS for me to buy shares than such deep LEAPS, since option contracts have to be 100% covered. The strike has to get much closer to the current market price before the LEAPS actually win on leverage.
ETrade and Ameritrade margin rates are atrocious while you can borrow a lot more stock the interest rate you pay is super high compared to Fidelity where they only charge 4% margin interest on anything over $500k
That comes to a saving of $10K in interest at least (probably more due to interest compounding every month) by reducing 1% in interest for every million you borrow. That's almost $27 a day in interest saved per million of margin borrowing for every 1% reduction in rates
I'm sure some other brokers may be cheaper but I'd worry about their business stability despite securities insurance
 
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ETrade and Ameritrade margin rates are atrocious while you can borrow a lot more stock the interest rate you pay is super high compared to Fidelity where they only charge 4% margin interest on anything over $500k
That comes to a saving of $10K in interest at least (probably more due to interest compounding every month) by reducing 1% in interest for every million you borrow. That's almost $27 a day in interest saved per million of margin borrowing for every 1% reduction in rates
I'm sure some other brokers may be cheaper but I'd worry about their business stability despite securities insurance
ATD margin is 10% APR for small accounts like mine
 
My guess was that Tesla feared people trading down to a model 3 and some of that might happen but from just a tiny sample from this board, people are not looking to trade down and the cars are for extended family.

Two sample points from my friends:

1. double income family, bought 2015 VW e-Golf january 2015 and 2016 Tesla Model X90 in May 2016. One Model 3 reservation to replace eGolf. Invested into TSLA and so able to and planning to replace AP1 Model X with AP2 Model X in 2018, Model 3 to replace eGolf ASAP.

2. single income family, stretched budget to replace Prius with Model S60 lease late 2016. Does not have autopilot enabled. Loves the car but plans to replace with Model 3 after the lease is up. Does not have money in TSLA,

I now wish I had more than just one reservation :)
 
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Since some here had been questioning this list order, yesterday I emailed Tesla NA Sales. A voicemail response arrived two hours ago from Manuel in Fremont. He said he wanted to be sure to give a good answer, and that #1 and #2 above should be reversed.

Curt, your posts have always been of the highest quality here. And so when I read your original post that indicated first units to S/X owners it really troubled me, given that I've thought all along that first units to employees was such a brilliant move that would reduce risk. Thank you for pursuing this issue for the sake of accuracy, and thank you for calming effect this update has had on my nerves! Have a great weekend.

Doug
 
No advice here and disclaimer - long tsla here, not enough shares and STRETCHED last July for a 60S, now a 75 -and a 3 reservation.

Several posts here and on the other investment thread have indicated selling shares to purchase a 3, S or X, think twice. It may become a very expensive purchase due to lost opportunity of a higher SP.
 
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