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2021 p3D handling concerns. I'm disappointed [because suspension too soft]

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,119
1,821
USA
I am not too proud to revise my impression, and that the M3P may not be too heavy to handle well, despite the fact that it feels anything but nimble.

In this context the issue of wheel weight and suspension work comes up a lot on this forum.
So, please correct me if I am wrong, but if I shave off, say, 50% of the wheel weight by replacing the Uberturbines (uber-heavy, for sure) without re-tuning the suspension for the lesser unsprung weight it now works against, the ride will become harder, unpleasant for daily driving on shitty U.S. roads, and possibly bone rattling. No?
Hmm, I have never heard of a reduction in unsprung weight causing the suspension to become more harsh. I also can't think of any reason it would do so. If you keep the same tire but install a wheel that weighs 50% less the "comfort" should not change.
 
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dfwatt

Active Member
Sep 24, 2018
3,018
5,036
FL
I would be weary listening to others when it comes to the subjective connection between driver and car-any car.
Your beast weighs 4,250 lbs. No oversized tires, heavier sways, lighter wheels, stiffer shocks, etc. will overcome the dead weight of over 2 tons in a turn.

The M3P is a "performance sedan" whatever that means. It's an over-powered, straightline muscle car that will never beat the handling of even a first generation Cayman S (2900lbs), or an old 911 S (2300lbs). Dead weight wants to travel straight (check out some Nürburgring videos of M3Ps trying to chase even a baldy driven 911 GT3 through the turns of the Nordschleife). It's just physics. Even after Porsche applied all its skills to make the Taican (5100lbs) "handle" like a sports car, it is just too heavy to be truly nimble and agile.

I own the same car as you, and its drive-by-wire throttle and indirect steering feel, its heavy wheels, its shitty seats with no side bolsters to hold me in place when I accelerate out of a turn - all that disconnects me from the visceral experience and elation I get driving my Porsche that truly is glued to the road and keeps my body planted in place, and supremely in charge.

But teasing all that from an M3P is just asking too much, I think. Tesla pioneered a wonderful driving machine that still leads the way to the automotive future, despite all imitators to date. Let's wait for the battery weight to come down, then we can maybe expect truly sports car handling AND range.
Good grief. There's so much nonsense in this it's hard to know where to start. Have you ever driven actually an old 911 Model S? They were just plain dangerous with SNAP trailing throttle oversteer. The earlier generation turbos were no better, and most of them ended up spinning out and getting in wrecks because of the same problem of trailing throttle oversteer. Indeed Porsche worked for decades to get nasty forms.of trailing throttle oversteer out of their 911. The newer caymans are great handling cars but they don't handle frankly any better than a properly set up model 3 with proper tires and suspension. Indeed they don't have higher skidpad numbers than a Model 3 that's been properly set up. While the model 3 is heavier (duh!), it also has a lower center of gravity and slightly lower lower polar moment of inertia than even a Cayman. Obviously, as Colin Chapman famously said "do your best design and then add lightness." So yes a lighter car even when you properly ratio your tires to vehicle weight, is going to feel more Nimble, but it's not going to have higher limits. Properly set up model 3s pretty much stay with just about any car out there in the corners. Talk to the people who are actually tracking the car and get their observations on who and what they can hang with in the corners. Get some data. Because your post actually shows the common but regrettable triumph of ideology and Doctrine over experience.
 
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dfwatt

Active Member
Sep 24, 2018
3,018
5,036
FL
I am not too proud to revise my impression, and that the M3P may not be too heavy to handle well, despite the fact that it feels anything but nimble.

In this context the issue of wheel weight and suspension work comes up a lot on this forum.
So, please correct me if I am wrong, but if I shave off, say, 50% of the wheel weight by replacing the Uberturbines (uber-heavy, for sure) without re-tuning the suspension for the lesser unsprung weight it now works against, the ride will become harder, unpleasant for daily driving on shitty U.S. roads, and possibly bone rattling. No?
I think you're exposing yourself. Unsprung weight never I repeat never makes Cars ride worse. In fact the theoretically ideal car would have close to zero unsprung weight and its suspension would be able to track effortlessly or with much less effort and with much less inertia over all kinds of Road irregularities. But to get back to the issue which is ways that you can improve both the ride and the handling of the performance model 3, by all means get a forged lightweight 19-inch wheel and even with wider Tire say 265/35 you can shave almost 10 lb a corner off the current boat anchors. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is a great tire but that wheel is not a great wheel. Just replacing that makes a big difference. Then get the MPP Sports coilover kit and set it something like 10/8 or if you're really fiendish about handling 8/6 compression / rebound. Replace the front lower control arm bushing and the traction and trailing arms with the MPP spherical bushing items. Lastly, put significantly wider tires on the car. You will experience a transformed car at that point. Its turn in will astonish you. I speak from experience with my own heavily kitted out MP3.
 

jmarcos

Member
Dec 6, 2019
26
29
Los Angeles
Is the extra width of a 265 tire worth it for street driving? [over-tiring the car?]
I say it because I do like the 20'' PS4S's in the M3P, already have a wheel/tire APEX EC-7 set for the track in 265/40R18, but the idea of a light 19'' wheelset for normal driving has me thinking - will I regret having to deal with more road noise on longer drives? (that's where the upcoming Pilot Sport EV's might be good, i.e. a PS4S 'TO' tire in 19'' sizes)

Right now my car has the stock 20x8.5'' wheels and tires, MPP sport suspension, 1.8˚ camber front / 2.0˚ in the back, and UPP rear swaybar set to medium [stock front] which makes for a decent balance on the streets. I did tweak the rear shock settings to avoid over-steer that could surprise my wife. Overall I think it has a good rotation with reasonable throttle application, but when doing a tight turn with more throttle I think I'm over-driving the fronts. That's where wider could help I think.
Again, the above musings are for the street, for the track I'll figure-out the balance with the second wheelset and a no-shim front setting.
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,137
1,366
ol' Virginny
Is the extra width of a 265 tire worth it for street driving? [over-tiring the car?]
I say it because I do like the 20'' PS4S's in the M3P, already have a wheel/tire APEX EC-7 set for the track in 265/40R18, but the idea of a light 19'' wheelset for normal driving has me thinking - will I regret having to deal with more road noise on longer drives? (that's where the upcoming Pilot Sport EV's might be good, i.e. a PS4S 'TO' tire in 19'' sizes)

Right now my car has the stock 20x8.5'' wheels and tires, MPP sport suspension, 1.8˚ camber front / 2.0˚ in the back, and UPP rear swaybar set to medium [stock front] which makes for a decent balance on the streets. I did tweak the rear shock settings to avoid over-steer that could surprise my wife. Overall I think it has a good rotation with reasonable throttle application, but when doing a tight turn with more throttle I think I'm over-driving the fronts. That's where wider could help I think.
Again, the above musings are for the street, for the track I'll figure-out the balance with the second wheelset and a no-shim front setting.

It’s up to you . A few guys on here say it isn’t worth it but I personally enjoy it. The car feels lighter on its feet and I’m highly entertained by the “extra” capability. Braking and turning is hilarious. It’s more so the range hit you need to consider vs the road noise - but I’ve been driving noisy sports cars my entire life.
 

dfwatt

Active Member
Sep 24, 2018
3,018
5,036
FL
About using 265/35 it's imperative to use 18" or 19"? Whith 20" I see the overral diameter is too much. I'm wrong?
With 20 inch wheels the proper Tire would be the 265/30 - 20. I run those on the front of my car (275/30 in the rear) and they are slightly less than 1% smaller in rolling diameter than the stock 235/35.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,119
1,821
USA
Effectively any tire with an overall diameter between 26" and 27" is good. You can vary a bit more than that, but not much.
 

WesC

Member
Aug 26, 2018
218
83
Las Vegas
Effectively any tire with an overall diameter between 26" and 27" is good. You can vary a bit more than that, but not much.
How about 255/35/20 on 20x8.5 titan 7's? Titan 7 doesn't make TS-5 in 9.0's for the model 3 offsets, which is the recommended width for the tires.

I still haven't found anyone with this setup, but I think this would work very well for me on the street with some light track or auto cross use. Some extra sidewall. Some extra max load, although still below the 18's. $300 cheaper than 245/35/20's.

My 335i had 255/35/18's PSS on the rear (18x8.5 OEM rims) and I didn't have any issues with bent rims or the right comfort. Seems like a comfortable sidewall, but will really improve stopping distance and cornering, and cut the understeer from the OEM aero all seasons tires. Although idk if that wide of a tire on 20x8.5's will make the turn in feel really sloppy or not. Or if it will look ridiculously wide on on a 8.5 in wide rim.
 

dwrecckk

Member
Jul 24, 2013
16
14
California
It's not a weight issue. The shocks are under dampened. Lowering springs alone may delete some of the roll, but the floaty will remain unless proper dampers are installed. Otherwise a great, balanced platform.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,119
1,821
USA
How about 255/35/20 on 20x8.5 titan 7's? Titan 7 doesn't make TS-5 in 9.0's for the model 3 offsets, which is the recommended width for the tires.

I still haven't found anyone with this setup, but I think this would work very well for me on the street with some light track or auto cross use. Some extra sidewall. Some extra max load, although still below the 18's. $300 cheaper than 245/35/20's.

My 335i had 255/35/18's PSS on the rear (18x8.5 OEM rims) and I didn't have any issues with bent rims or the right comfort. Seems like a comfortable sidewall, but will really improve stopping distance and cornering, and cut the understeer from the OEM aero all seasons tires. Although idk if that wide of a tire on 20x8.5's will make the turn in feel really sloppy or not. Or if it will look ridiculously wide on on a 8.5 in wide rim.

Keep in mind that the tread width is ultimately what decides the size of the tire, not the branded size. As an example, the stock 20's run very wide for a 235. Depending on what 255's you're looking at, they may run narrow, so keep that in mind. That being said, looks like OD on that size is ~27" which should work fine. But the 255/35/20 PS4S is only .2" wider than the Tesla spec 235/35/20!
 

conv90

Member
Mar 19, 2019
131
43
Milano
Here in Italy we
Keep in mind that the tread width is ultimately what decides the size of the tire, not the branded size. As an example, the stock 20's run very wide for a 235. Depending on what 255's you're looking at, they may run narrow, so keep that in mind. That being said, looks like OD on that size is ~27" which should work fine. But the 255/35/20 PS4S is only .2" wider than the Tesla spec 235/35/20!
Here in Italy we can't change tires . We HAVE to stay with 235/35-20 and or 245/35-20.
We can change to 18 or 19 ONLY if we use some special homologation and pass to inspection and the change of the paper of the car . So definitively a Nightmare. ONLY some rims have this homologation and I'm not speaking of VIA/JWL certification .. Im'm speacking of an European certication and an additional Italian certification.
Changing rims and using stock sizes (235/35-20 or 245/35-20) is not legal too but it's impossible to find the differences.
What I dont like about the stock is the 235/35-20 Pirelli P0 on 9" Uberturbine. They are too stretched.
looking at Tirerack I can see why...
235/35-20 Pirelli P0 T0 Tesla OEM are tread width of ONLY 7.9" !
235/35-20 Michelin PS4S T0 Tesla are 8.8" Tread Width with a rim range of 8-9.5"
and
Generic 245/35-20 Michelin PS4S are 8.6"-8.7"
Probably my next step will be to use 235/35-20 Michelin PS4S that are wider tread width than Pirelli P0.
Then I'll try to find some lightwheight 9" (or 8,5") 20" rims. In this case I'll not be "100% legal" but I'll have same Diameter an tire size allowed by the italian Automotive institute.

Then...which forged/lightweight rimsto use im a bit confused expecially for ET.
I'm confused for ET because i don't know if in a future I can/want upgrade to lower springs or coil over system .
 
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MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,119
1,821
USA
Here in Italy we

Here in Italy we can't change tires . We HAVE to stay with 235/35-20 and or 245/35-20.
We can change to 18 or 19 ONLY if we use some special homologation and pass to inspection and the change of the paper of the car . So definitively a Nightmare. ONLY some rims have this homologation and I'm not speaking of VIA/JWL certification .. Im'm speacking of an European certication and an additional Italian certification.
Changing rims and using stock sizes (235/35-20 or 245/35-20) is not legal too but it's impossible to find the differences.
What I dont like about the stock is the 235/35-20 Pirelli P0 on 9" Uberturbine. They are too stretched.
looking at Tirerack I can see why...
235/35-20 Pirelli P0 T0 Tesla OEM are tread width of ONLY 7.9" !
235/35-20 Michelin PS4S T0 Tesla are 8.8" Tread Width with a rim range of 8-9.5"
and
Generic 245/35-20 Michelin PS4S are 8.6"-8.7"
Probably my next step will be to use 235/35-20 Michelin PS4S that are wider tread width than Pirelli P0.
Then I'll try to find some lightwheight 9" (or 8,5") 20" rims. In this case I'll not be "100% legal" but I'll have same Diameter an tire size allowed by the italian Automotive institute.

Then...which forged/lightweight rimsto use im a bit confused expecially for ET.
I'm confused for ET because i don't know if in a future I can/want upgrade to lower springs or coil over system .
Wow, that's crazy. Guess I'm not moving to Italy lol.

Yeah they switched to those Pirelli's for improved range - which honestly there is a measurable improvement there but they're worse in every other way.

An offset of 30 to 35 should work well for your needs. The bolt pattern is 5x114.3.
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,137
1,366
ol' Virginny
Here in Italy we

Here in Italy we can't change tires . We HAVE to stay with 235/35-20 and or 245/35-20.
We can change to 18 or 19 ONLY if we use some special homologation and pass to inspection and the change of the paper of the car . So definitively a Nightmare. ONLY some rims have this homologation and I'm not speaking of VIA/JWL certification .. Im'm speacking of an European certication and an additional Italian certification.
Changing rims and using stock sizes (235/35-20 or 245/35-20) is not legal too but it's impossible to find the differences.
What I dont like about the stock is the 235/35-20 Pirelli P0 on 9" Uberturbine. They are too stretched.
looking at Tirerack I can see why...
235/35-20 Pirelli P0 T0 Tesla OEM are tread width of ONLY 7.9" !
235/35-20 Michelin PS4S T0 Tesla are 8.8" Tread Width with a rim range of 8-9.5"
and
Generic 245/35-20 Michelin PS4S are 8.6"-8.7"
Probably my next step will be to use 235/35-20 Michelin PS4S that are wider tread width than Pirelli P0.
Then I'll try to find some lightwheight 9" (or 8,5") 20" rims. In this case I'll not be "100% legal" but I'll have same Diameter an tire size allowed by the italian Automotive institute.

Then...which forged/lightweight rimsto use im a bit confused expecially for ET.
I'm confused for ET because i don't know if in a future I can/want upgrade to lower springs or coil over system .

Are you shitting me. You’re telling the government dictates what size tires you can/cannot put on your car? Can’t you keep the OEM set and use it to pass inspection? Not sure how things work there.
 

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