Suspension and Wheels…I’m Lost ('23 M3P)

[2and4EVWheels]

Oh boy. I know this has been discussed because I’ve read a lot of the posts but I am still lost as to what to do myself in terms of suspension and wheels. I've got a good idea on what I want to do with the brakes but so many options and discussions on suspension and wheels that I am having trouble being confident in a decision.

Suspension:
I want to do occasional Trackdays but I also want to be quick and not destroy a set of tires in a day. I'm more into motorcycle trackdays but like to do the occasional car trackday. Normally when I tell people I want to do an occasional trackday they think stock everything is fine except for the brakes on the M3P. However, I find the stock suspension too soft for my tastes and I don't love the way the car feels...especially on corner entry. I don't commute in the car and take mostly short trips with the occasional 1.5hr drive to the city and back. I don't want my teeth rattled out but don't mind stiffer than stock.

I have been considering the Ohlins Road and Track because I know the brand from motorcycle suspension and I've worked on them before. Also because I think it will be easier to sell a car with Ohlins suspension advertised as opposed to a lesser known brand. The 3 well known shops with their own suspension are steering me away from the Road and Track saying it will be too harsh for the road. I am wary of spending $3k to upgrade the suspension for something not much better (for the track) than stock though.

Does anyone have any experience with the Ohlins Road and Track as compared to the UPP Comfort Coilovers vs Redwood Performance Sport?

Maybe someone could compare it to cars I have track experience in: 991 GT3/4, 991.1 C2S, C8, Jaguar F-Type. The F-Type that is of similar weight but handles better with stock suspension than the M3P...maybe not surprising with it being double the MSRP. I am going for more GT4 feel over Carrera S feel if anyone knows those cars.

Has anyone run the Ohlins Road and Track with a different spring rate?

Wheels:
Totally lost here. The prices are all over the place as are the weights. Some forged wheels are 26+ lbs while others are 19 lbs. I eventually want to run some negative camber for the track so don't want a problem there. I don't much care for looks. I'd like to get a set of decently light, well made forged wheels for around $3k if possible.


Thanks!

 

[Rodney!]

I cannot assist with suspension, as I am a SCCA Street class competitor (need stock suspension per rules) but I would suggest a lightweight set of 18x9.5 w/ 265/40-18 or 19x9.5 w/ 265/35-19 to start off. Lighter wheels are more expensive, so spend as much as you like there...

 

[MG535]

I’d suggest taking the car 100% stock to a track a few times and seeing if you even enjoy it enough to invest in upgrades/mods.

 

[2and4EVWheels]

I’d suggest taking the car 100% stock to a track a few times and seeing if you even enjoy it enough to invest in upgrades/mods.

I get this is the general advice but I'm looking for specifics here. I’ve been to the track a lot, in many different cars and I don’t think I will learn much I don’t already know with the stock setup. I’m hoping to get feedback on the suspension options.

 

[2and4EVWheels]

I cannot assist with suspension, as I am a SCCA Street class competitor (need stock suspension per rules) but I would suggest a lightweight set of 18x9.5 w/ 265/40-18 or 19x9.5 w/ 265/35-19 to start off. Lighter wheels are more expensive, so spend as much as you like there...

Yup, looking for lighter wheels. Any specific recommendations would be great as there are so many options and pricing varies widely as does weight and quality. Thanks!

 

[tm1v2]

@2and4EVWheels I'm a former track day enthusiast, used to go occasionally, haven't been on track in years though and never in a Tesla. I felt the same way about the M3P's stock suspension. I went with the Redwood Motorsports "Performance Sport" Ohlins DFV, and I think it's absolutely spot on for a sporty daily driver. It is firmer than stock, yet overall rides better IMO, when I had a loaner M3LR for a couple days I actually missed the ride quality of my car. Handling is in a different world from stock when pushing the car hard, especially over rough or uneven pavement. The easy adjustment is nice, can adjust all 4 corners in <= 2 minutes, no tools or lifting the car involved. I tend to leave it at 1/2 stiff all around since my wife seems to like that setting (as a driver or passenger), but for fun drives on my own I'll crank it up to 2/3rds stiff, and if I have an especially delicate passenger I might soften it below 1/2 stiff.

I also got the Redwood pillowball top hats, MPP front lower control arm (FLCA) bearings, and MPP compression rod inserts. I installed everything together, I can't really say how noticeable any of the bushing upgrades are on their own, but I strongly suspect the FLCA bearings are worth it. Mid-corner steering response is way way better and I think the FLCA bearings deserve some real credit there, along with the coilovers of course. The compression rod inserts...I figured why not while I'm at it. I'm not tracking this car but maybe they'll help keep things stable in a panic stop on a back road for a deer. The pillowballs are surely overkill for my purely street-driven car, but I wanted to try them anyways, no regrets. They might be worthwhile for you, hard to say since I haven't used the suspension without them, but I would get them again especially if I was going to track the car.



What makes the handling better?

When I test drove the M3P and pushed it on a local twisty back road that's very wide (room for play) but uneven with big dips and bumps, it was literally bouncing out of control, the stock dampers couldn't keep up at all. Steering response was gone, I'd turn the wheel and it felt like ages before the car responded. Then going over a big dip we crashed HARD into the rear bump stops. It was a mess. The car I tested and our own M3P we bought felt the same, I don't think anything was defective, the stock suspension just wasn't capable for such driving.

Another issue was the stock suspension never felt fully settled, even on smooth pavement. Around a smooth highway ramp I could get to the limit of grip without the car bouncing way out of control, but it still never felt fully locked down. Weird floatiness and small motions were always present to some degree.

That's all fixed with the upgraded suspension. Night and day when pushing the car hard. Body control is vastly better. The car feels very locked in around high speed turns. The ride and handling over rough pavement is hugely better. The Model 3 fundamentally has limited rear suspension travel, so it's still easy to hit those bump stops, but doing so is a far smoother and better controlled experience.

Last but not least, the balance of the car at its limits now is impeccable, with the dampers set to same stiffness front & rear. I've never owned a car that felt this neutral before. (Driven yes, but not owned.) Understeer isn't really a thing anymore, all 4 tires want to give up at once usually.



While I haven't tracked this car, and I have no plans to, I can extrapolate how the Redwood Performance Sport might feel on track based on other vehicles I've tracked and modded. As I'm sure you know, a car that feels firm and responsive on the street can still feel soft on track. It's just a wholly different situation when you are constantly hammering on a car and trying to ride 10/10ths around every turn.

If the car is primarily for street use, with occasional track days, I think the Performance Sport would be just right to me. Same for pure street use if you just want a sporty car that's still street-friendly and family-friendly (my situation these days) with the damper adjustments set appropriately.

Now if the car is going to see a lot of track time, and isn't a family car daily driver on the street, personally I would go stiffer. The Performance Sport feels like a well-tuned sporty street car setup, firm and sporty but not over the top, and it's very well balanced. But it just isn't track rat firm. Think sports sedan, not hard core sports car. Redwood makes a separate "HPDE/Race" version of their Ohlins DFV for good reason I think - that would be my pick for an M3P seeing a lot of track days combined with moderate street use. I'm sure it will ride worse on the street than my Performance Sport, but I think the tradeoff would be worthwhile in this scenario.



I can't compare firsthand to the Ohlins R&T, or any other aftermarket coilovers for this car. R&T for Model 3 wasn't even out or announced yet when I got my Redwood Ohlins DFV. I too specifically wanted Ohlins though, after experiencing factory Ohlins DFV on a different car we test drove. I came across Redwood Motorsports, then realized they're the same folks as SakeBomb Garage and have been at this for years for Japanese sports cars. Some of my friends have used their upgrades and vouched for them.

I can make a few armchair comparisons though. For one, the Ohlins R&T springs have a higher front:rear stiffness ratio compared to either Redwood Performance Sport or Redwood HPDE/Race . In other words, in theory the Redwoods are probably more neutral, the R&T slightly more understeery-y. That's just theory though, I haven't driven a car with R&T so don't take that as gospel. You can also swap out the springs on either kit of course, and play with different front vs rear damping adjustments. And if you're going to track the car a lot, adjustable sway bars might be worthwhile.

I've seen a lot of comments about the R&T having very firm compression damping. As in, excessively firm for nasty real-world roads. But maybe it feels just right for smooth racetracks. It is a "Road & Track" kit after all, and I think the complaints I've read are from people who bought it just for street use, not really appreciating the kit's "Track" focus.

I think there's differences in recommended height and travel ranges between R&T and Redwood Ohlins DFV. I don't know/recall the details though since as mentioned R&T wasn't a thing yet when I was suspension shopping. I setup my Redwood Ohlins to match my stock height, going low just doesn't make sense for the driving we do. (Ended up about 2-3mm lower after final settling.)

 

[tm1v2]

For wheels there are lot of options out there. For us the stock 20" wheels with rubberband tires had to go, we already knew from experience our roads can crack big Tesla "performance" wheels with short sidewalls.

I decided to start with stock Model 3 width and offset/placement (but my needs and priorities are different than yours). I went for the Titan7 T-S5 in 18x8.5" ET35 for $2k at the time, I think they're $2.2k now. They're forged (truly forged not "rotary forged") and a direct mount fitment made specific for this car, the center bore is even machined for the M3P "stepped lip."

For tires I've been running 245/45R18 on them, first 300TW summers, currently 500TW allseasons (I need another set of wheels for this car at some point so I can go back to swapping between summers & winter-friendly/allseasons). For street use I was happy with the grip of *good* 300TW 245mm tires - much better than the crappy stock Pirelli's. For track use though I'm sure you'd get <= 240TW "extreme performance" tires, and maybe want to go wider too. Also for track tires I think the selection might be better for this car in 19" than 18", though there certainly are 18" options, just something to look into.

For street use I'm very happy with 18" though. The extra sidewall, cheaper tires, and cheaper wheels are completely worth it. 18" is a snug fit over the M3P brakes especially the rear parking brake (stupid integrated parking brake), make sure tire techs don't put any weights in that path.

I didn't bother to weigh my wheels, I was far more concerned about durability from bad pavement than dropping pounds, but wow the weight difference was obvious. Both when carrying the wheels around, and also when turning the steering wheel. It is an upgrade I could feel while driving, every time I turned the wheel. The biggest feel benefit is in quick back-and-forth slalom style turns, where the car just felt more nimble with the lighter wheels.

 

[2and4EVWheels]

@tm1v2 wow, thanks for taking the time for that write up! I think you may have convinced me to go with the Redwood kit. It's more expensive than the R&T but about the same price as changing the spring rates on the R&T. Also I think the R&T has a shorter throw in the back so might not be able to go down in the back much if at all.

I'll check out those wheels!

My last couple of drives I've been really concentrating on what the suspension is doing. I am starting to think that the steering is also part of the issue because it actually feels pretty good mid-corner.

 

[MG535]

I get this is the general advice but I'm looking for specifics here. I’ve been to the track a lot, in many different cars and I don’t think I will learn much I don’t already know with the stock setup. I’m hoping to get feedback on the suspension options.

I meant more in the sense of, how excited would you remain to keep tracking this car?

I had a 3P and I find it hard to imagine it’s a fun track car once the novelty wears off.

 

[The Other Dan]

One thing to note between the Ohlins in any flavor vs the MPP...
The Ohlins are a single adjustable vs the MPP (KW) are 2 way adjustable. Yes, the argument can be made that the Ohlins adjust both compression and rebound at the same time, but it's not the same as a true 2 way. I've already has one instance where that was an issue and could have been fixed if I had been on the KWs. In that instance it was during autox, I was getting chattering during tight corners. I was already as soft as I could go with the RW Ohlins, my buddy had MPP KWs on his Tesla. He backed off on compression, the chattering went away as expected. I had to live with it on mine.
But that is the only time it's been an issue.

And for wheels, I'd just get a set of Konigs and be done with it. A set of Hypergrams will weight about 19-21lbs ea. and are relatively cheap. $1k - $1300 per set.

 

[gearchruncher]

Lots of discussion here on shocks, but the first thing you need is camber. This is what will save your tires and increase your grip.

On a side note, in my experience, the Model 3 is always going to feel a bit different than other cars due to the very low CG, and fairly high polar moment of inertia but still with a 50/50 weight distribution. The idea of "handling better" is a personal mix of feel vs actual lap times, and stiffer is not always better for lap times, nor is a car that feels fast always actually fast. For instance, a lot of people like stiff sway / anti roll bars which give the car a lot of quick turn in, but aren't always the best for max grip.

All this to say it's unlikely someone can tell you that if you go with XXX coilovers, your car will immediately feel like a GT3 or a F-Type.

 

[miggity02]

Just seeing this post and wanted to suggest Apex wheels. They are strong and have been a great company to communicate with over the years. Even their rotary forged wheels are pretty light and of course their fully forged wheels are too. Several finishes to choose from but not a fully customizable wheel. Just throwing them out there if a more budget friendly wheel option is wanted.

 

[dfwatt]

Oh boy. I know this has been discussed because I’ve read a lot of the posts but I am still lost as to what to do myself in terms of suspension and wheels. I've got a good idea on what I want to do with the brakes but so many options and discussions on suspension and wheels that I am having trouble being confident in a decision.

Suspension:
I want to do occasional Trackdays but I also want to be quick and not destroy a set of tires in a day. I'm more into motorcycle trackdays but like to do the occasional car trackday. Normally when I tell people I want to do an occasional trackday they think stock everything is fine except for the brakes on the M3P. However, I find the stock suspension too soft for my tastes and I don't love the way the car feels...especially on corner entry. I don't commute in the car and take mostly short trips with the occasional 1.5hr drive to the city and back. I don't want my teeth rattled out but don't mind stiffer than stock.

I have been considering the Ohlins Road and Track because I know the brand from motorcycle suspension and I've worked on them before. Also because I think it will be easier to sell a car with Ohlins suspension advertised as opposed to a lesser known brand. The 3 well known shops with their own suspension are steering me away from the Road and Track saying it will be too harsh for the road. I am wary of spending $3k to upgrade the suspension for something not much better (for the track) than stock though.

Does anyone have any experience with the Ohlins Road and Track as compared to the UPP Comfort Coilovers vs Redwood Performance Sport?

Maybe someone could compare it to cars I have track experience in: 991 GT3/4, 991.1 C2S, C8, Jaguar F-Type. The F-Type that is of similar weight but handles better with stock suspension than the M3P...maybe not surprising with it being double the MSRP. I am going for more GT4 feel over Carrera S feel if anyone knows those cars.

Has anyone run the Ohlins Road and Track with a different spring rate?

Wheels:
Totally lost here. The prices are all over the place as are the weights. Some forged wheels are 26+ lbs while others are 19 lbs. I eventually want to run some negative camber for the track so don't want a problem there. I don't much care for looks. I'd like to get a set of decently light, well made forged wheels for around $3k if possible.


Thanks!

Thread 'Comparison of Model 3 Performance w/ Two Versions of MPP Coilovers' Comparison of Model 3 Performance w/ Two Versions of MPP Coilovers

We have had great luck with the VS forged wheels these are pictured on the cars in the link above available from Jason at get yourwheels.com.. They are about $750 a corner, 22lbs. A cheaper alternative are wheels from Jova but they are significantly heavier even though they are forged also.

 

[famoruwa]

@2and4EVWheels I'm a former track day enthusiast, used to go occasionally, haven't been on track in years though and never in a Tesla. I felt the same way about the M3P's stock suspension. I went with the Redwood Motorsports "Performance Sport" Ohlins DFV, and I think it's absolutely spot on for a sporty daily driver. It is firmer than stock, yet overall rides better IMO, when I had a loaner M3LR for a couple days I actually missed the ride quality of my car. Handling is in a different world from stock when pushing the car hard, especially over rough or uneven pavement. The easy adjustment is nice, can adjust all 4 corners in <= 2 minutes, no tools or lifting the car involved. I tend to leave it at 1/2 stiff all around since my wife seems to like that setting (as a driver or passenger), but for fun drives on my own I'll crank it up to 2/3rds stiff, and if I have an especially delicate passenger I might soften it below 1/2 stiff.

I also got the Redwood pillowball top hats, MPP front lower control arm (FLCA) bearings, and MPP compression rod inserts. I installed everything together, I can't really say how noticeable any of the bushing upgrades are on their own, but I strongly suspect the FLCA bearings are worth it. Mid-corner steering response is way way better and I think the FLCA bearings deserve some real credit there, along with the coilovers of course. The compression rod inserts...I figured why not while I'm at it. I'm not tracking this car but maybe they'll help keep things stable in a panic stop on a back road for a deer. The pillowballs are surely overkill for my purely street-driven car, but I wanted to try them anyways, no regrets. They might be worthwhile for you, hard to say since I haven't used the suspension without them, but I would get them again especially if I was going to track the car.



What makes the handling better?

When I test drove the M3P and pushed it on a local twisty back road that's very wide (room for play) but uneven with big dips and bumps, it was literally bouncing out of control, the stock dampers couldn't keep up at all. Steering response was gone, I'd turn the wheel and it felt like ages before the car responded. Then going over a big dip we crashed HARD into the rear bump stops. It was a mess. The car I tested and our own M3P we bought felt the same, I don't think anything was defective, the stock suspension just wasn't capable for such driving.

Another issue was the stock suspension never felt fully settled, even on smooth pavement. Around a smooth highway ramp I could get to the limit of grip without the car bouncing way out of control, but it still never felt fully locked down. Weird floatiness and small motions were always present to some degree.

That's all fixed with the upgraded suspension. Night and day when pushing the car hard. Body control is vastly better. The car feels very locked in around high speed turns. The ride and handling over rough pavement is hugely better. The Model 3 fundamentally has limited rear suspension travel, so it's still easy to hit those bump stops, but doing so is a far smoother and better controlled experience.

Last but not least, the balance of the car at its limits now is impeccable, with the dampers set to same stiffness front & rear. I've never owned a car that felt this neutral before. (Driven yes, but not owned.) Understeer isn't really a thing anymore, all 4 tires want to give up at once usually.



While I haven't tracked this car, and I have no plans to, I can extrapolate how the Redwood Performance Sport might feel on track based on other vehicles I've tracked and modded. As I'm sure you know, a car that feels firm and responsive on the street can still feel soft on track. It's just a wholly different situation when you are constantly hammering on a car and trying to ride 10/10ths around every turn.

If the car is primarily for street use, with occasional track days, I think the Performance Sport would be just right to me. Same for pure street use if you just want a sporty car that's still street-friendly and family-friendly (my situation these days) with the damper adjustments set appropriately.

Now if the car is going to see a lot of track time, and isn't a family car daily driver on the street, personally I would go stiffer. The Performance Sport feels like a well-tuned sporty street car setup, firm and sporty but not over the top, and it's very well balanced. But it just isn't track rat firm. Think sports sedan, not hard core sports car. Redwood makes a separate "HPDE/Race" version of their Ohlins DFV for good reason I think - that would be my pick for an M3P seeing a lot of track days combined with moderate street use. I'm sure it will ride worse on the street than my Performance Sport, but I think the tradeoff would be worthwhile in this scenario.



I can't compare firsthand to the Ohlins R&T, or any other aftermarket coilovers for this car. R&T for Model 3 wasn't even out or announced yet when I got my Redwood Ohlins DFV. I too specifically wanted Ohlins though, after experiencing factory Ohlins DFV on a different car we test drove. I came across Redwood Motorsports, then realized they're the same folks as SakeBomb Garage and have been at this for years for Japanese sports cars. Some of my friends have used their upgrades and vouched for them.

I can make a few armchair comparisons though. For one, the Ohlins R&T springs have a higher front:rear stiffness ratio compared to either Redwood Performance Sport or Redwood HPDE/Race . In other words, in theory the Redwoods are probably more neutral, the R&T slightly more understeery-y. That's just theory though, I haven't driven a car with R&T so don't take that as gospel. You can also swap out the springs on either kit of course, and play with different front vs rear damping adjustments. And if you're going to track the car a lot, adjustable sway bars might be worthwhile.

I've seen a lot of comments about the R&T having very firm compression damping. As in, excessively firm for nasty real-world roads. But maybe it feels just right for smooth racetracks. It is a "Road & Track" kit after all, and I think the complaints I've read are from people who bought it just for street use, not really appreciating the kit's "Track" focus.

I think there's differences in recommended height and travel ranges between R&T and Redwood Ohlins DFV. I don't know/recall the details though since as mentioned R&T wasn't a thing yet when I was suspension shopping. I setup my Redwood Ohlins to match my stock height, going low just doesn't make sense for the driving we do. (Ended up about 2-3mm lower after final settling.)

Running the RW Ohlins Performance Sport here and this upgrade is worth every penny for the street or track IMO over the stock setup. I added the Front and Rear Swaybars + Adjustable Rear Camber and Toe Control Arms, currently running on MPS4S on stock wheels and the car feels completely like its on rails. My previous setup was Eibach Pro-Kit Spring + Stock damper and it never felt right and would occasionally bottom out, primarily due to the stock damper not paring well with the increased spring rate.

 

[Krobbler]

I'm running MPP sports, 18x9.5 with 265/40 tires, with stock m3p swaybars. Absolutely perfect setup for street and track. Firmer than stock but not harsh over bumps.

If you stick to the suggested MPP height settings you do not need camber or toe arms. I'm slightly lower than suggested mpp settings so I have around -1.3 degrees camber.

 

[dfwatt]

I'm running MPP sports, 18x9.5 with 265/40 tires, with stock m3p swaybars. Absolutely perfect setup for street and track. Firmer than stock but not harsh over bumps.

If you stick to the suggested MPP height settings you do not need camber or toe arms. I'm slightly lower than suggested mpp settings so I have around -1.3 degrees camber.

You don't in a strict sense "need" tow arms either front or rear as those are adjustable on the stock suspension indeed they are the only thing that is adjustable on the stock suspension. The advantage of the adjustable toe links is that they obviate the bulky eccentric cam mechanism that is over time prone to rust, stick and be more difficult to adjust in finer increments even when it is not rusted. In other words it's really a boon to alignment including aligning the toe yourself on the rear which is critical to saving your rear tires. Most chewed up asymmetrically worn rear tires emerge from problems with toe not camber

 

[Lindenwood]

I’d concur with @gearcruncher that a stiff car doesn’t necessarily make for a faster car.

My lateral grip up front actually decreased not-insignificantly when I went from MPP Comfort coils to MPP Sport coils on KW adjustable dampers. I triple-checked camber, toe, and multiple damper settings, but the front would break loose much sooner than before (at a lower speed in the same turn I’d taken at least a hundred times at ~0.9g). I went back to Comforts after a few weeks.

Even on my cheap Federal 595RS-Pros, I regularly finish in the top ~10% in AutoX (raw times) on my Comforts (with two FTDs at smaller events). On this final run I coned-away a 2nd-place pass to finish 5th overall (of 40) in the local Porsche club. The understeer and front-end chatter is because I had to swap in stock control arms while chasing a bad ball joint, so I had stock LCABs and CR bearings.

Overall, things I would absolutely do again for racing:

1) Upper Control Arms (3 degrees of camber or more)
2) Front Lower Control Arm bearings (great feel, reduced understeer).
3) Front Compression Rod bearings (great feel and precision—MPP because even the +2mm of caster feels really good).
3) Rear Camber + Toe arms (both make quick home adjustments easier).

Multiple brands make fine products, but I can strongly recommend @MountainPass for, if nothing else, their customer service. That said, I think I have about $6k in goodies from them and still can’t stay off their website because it all performs as advertised.

4) I am extremely happy with my MPP Adjustable Comforts on a daily-driven car racing once a month. Two semi-pro racing instructors drove mine on a road course with this setup and had great things to say (even the one who admitted he didnt want to like it). The dampers are very capable and cranking them toward the stiff end significantly reduces body roll and brake dive.

5) It’s hard to find a perfect wheel and tire combo. I have been running 19x9.5 and 275/35r19 but sold them so I can buy 10.5 or 11s for next season to run 295s. Still debating 18s vs 19s, but will be running A052s which should be a notable step up from my Federal 595RS-Pros.

6) The stiffer rear anti-sway bar seemed to balance out the softer Comfort coils when cornering and, more importantly, help improve rotation. I would probably do it again, but I would start with the stiffer front-end bearings next time to see if that sufficiently reduced understeer.