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2021 Refresh Model S LR for the Track (1-2x a Year)
- Thread starter play150
- Start date
JADCa
Member
What kind of a driver are you? If you have years of experience and can get everything out of a gt3, no way. If you are new and want to have some fun on a track, watch the brakes and you will probably be fine.
My p85 was fine for a lap or two, but it is far from a track car. My 3p is very quick and beats most all Porsches for a lap or two, but you have to balance brakes and tire failure from heat in longer hard runs.
I can't believe the LR will be any different. Just too heavy with no brake cooling for serious work.
My p85 was fine for a lap or two, but it is far from a track car. My 3p is very quick and beats most all Porsches for a lap or two, but you have to balance brakes and tire failure from heat in longer hard runs.
I can't believe the LR will be any different. Just too heavy with no brake cooling for serious work.
MasterC17
Active Member
I am considering moving from the Performance 3 to a LR S. The new S is only ~500lbs heavier than a Model 3. It's really not a significant difference.
Brakes and tires aren't the concern, those are easily upgraded. The concern is with the drivetrain. The Model 3 limits current after less than 10 minutes if you are driving it hard. I've seen it as bad as 7 minutes. Sadly, this makes it pretty unpractical for much beyond Time Trials and hero laps. Given the new S battery pack has to handle the current from the Plaid, the LR should have absolutely no issues keeping cool, and the LR has more power than the 3 Performance by quite a bit.
What I would like to know is quarter mile time - obviously it's unlikely the LR will hold power the way the Plaid does. But how much slower is it, that I am not sure of.
I have no doubt that the LR S will handle as well as a Model 3 with the appropriate suspension upgrades.
Brakes and tires aren't the concern, those are easily upgraded. The concern is with the drivetrain. The Model 3 limits current after less than 10 minutes if you are driving it hard. I've seen it as bad as 7 minutes. Sadly, this makes it pretty unpractical for much beyond Time Trials and hero laps. Given the new S battery pack has to handle the current from the Plaid, the LR should have absolutely no issues keeping cool, and the LR has more power than the 3 Performance by quite a bit.
What I would like to know is quarter mile time - obviously it's unlikely the LR will hold power the way the Plaid does. But how much slower is it, that I am not sure of.
I have no doubt that the LR S will handle as well as a Model 3 with the appropriate suspension upgrades.
beatle
Active Member
500 pounds not significant? Holy crap. Even talking vehicles that are over 4000 pounds, that's more than a 10% difference which is huge on a road course.
Has there been any track testing of the plaid other than single flying laps and drag times? If not, I wouldn't count on the plaid's track endurance being a lot better than 3P. More power means more heat.
I think the LR+ is probably a mid to upper 11 second car in the 1/4 mile.
Has there been any track testing of the plaid other than single flying laps and drag times? If not, I wouldn't count on the plaid's track endurance being a lot better than 3P. More power means more heat.
I think the LR+ is probably a mid to upper 11 second car in the 1/4 mile.
MasterC17
Active Member
Have you been to a track day recently (serious question, not being sarcastic)? The field is dominated primarily by heavy, high horsepower cars like the Camaro ZL1, GT500, etc. Cars are getting heavier. 4,500lbs in a car with a super low center of gravity and gobs of horsepower is not that heavy. Hell, the Taycan, which people raved was a great car on the road course (it's not, by the way), is nearly 700lbs heavier than the new S. And it has cooling problems.
Randy Pobst has so far had some good things to say about the cooling/voltage drop on the Plaid, stating it's better than the 3. The tech in the new S is a step forward beyond the 3. Given the 0-60 of the LR S, with rollout subtracted, is about 2.8 seconds, I'm guessing it will do the quarter in just under 10 seconds at 122-124mph. I say this because I'm also almost certain they've under-rated the base S.
That said, I agree the Plaid probably has the same overheating problems after about 10 minutes. Which is why the LR S could be a great purchase. I've been considering moving to a LR RWD 3 just because I'm so annoyed with the issue.
If I can get similar performance (lap times) on a road course with the LR S, but cooling longevity and a bigger battery to me that's a great deal. Ideally, they would make a 3 with another 100hp, a 100kWh pack, and improved cooling, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.
Tholland
Plaid/Black&ebony/21in wheels/OD- 5/31/21
I think you meant just under 11 seconds. Which is where it should be at around 670 hp. I’m a drag racer thru and thru for me I’m going from a 3p to Lr s for that. I’m hoping someone shows it’s time before my delivery
MasterC17
Active Member
Tholland
Plaid/Black&ebony/21in wheels/OD- 5/31/21
No worries at all. A 10.7-10.8 would be more than enough for the masses and with the new packs and motors and thermals it should be great for back to back runs. Im wondering if drag strip mode is on the LR model. I doubt it but hasn’t been confirmed or denied
beatle
Active Member
I was referring to the weight difference. Even when you're comparing porky cars, 500 pounds is still a lot of weight. It's not a 25% difference on a 2,000 pound Miata, but it's not insignificant.
The power curves on EVs are different than gas. They have incredible 60' times, but then power starts to drop off around 60-80 mph. The 2021 LR+ is an 11.9 second car according to Car and Driver: Tesla 0-60 Times | Tesla Model 3, Model S, Model X, and Roaster I don't think the new car would be a full second faster, but we'll see.
MasterC17
Active Member
That is fair - big horsepower makes up for that weight quick!
Prior to the Plaid, you are completely right. The power band peaks and then falls. It's another thing about the Model 3 I don't love, but it's not a huge issue either. Incredibly, the Plaid holds ~1000hp from 40mph to 200mph - crazy!
I don't imagine the LR S will hold power the way the Plaid does, but here's to hoping.
JADCa
Member
HP is highly overrated. Miatas routinely embarrass high HP cars at all but the highest speed tracks. Light and nimble is far better. The S will never be a track star. It may be fun and capable, but not great. Tire tech and brake tech can not handle that much weight for more than a lap or two. I love Tesla, but would absolutely take a meager 500 HP GT3 for a 30 minute race. One lap is fine, or several at 90%, but not full out continuous with 5000lbs.(with driver and safety equipment) Now just by reasonably having the discussion comparing a big electric sedan and the top Porsche sports car for track times, gives the win to Tesla.
MasterC17
Active Member
Eh, I disagree. Autocross, sure. Road course - not so much. Spec Miata record at VIR is a 2:14.4. I've run a 2:04.9 in the Model 3.
I definitely don't agree with your assessment on tires and brakes. I have nearly 2,500 on-track (road course) miles with the Model 3. I have an AP Racing front BBK and MPP Rear Rotors (stock calipers). I get about 15 track days out of the pads (about 1,000 miles). I've never had any fade or overheating on this setup. A set of racing slicks (Pirelli, Michelin, Continental, etc) can 100% handle a full session on the Model S. It's 4,550lbs, not 8,000. These tires are designed to go through hours of abuse on fully prepped race cars.
I will concede that the GT3 is the "better" track-car, in the sense that it would be less abusive on wear items, and that gas is readily available, and that it could last longer out there in one session than the S. But I don't think we can dismiss the Model S as just running one or two hot laps and then having to pit. I mean, look at Randy Pobst running Pikes Peak right now. He's hanging with things like the Bimmerworld Bergsteiger!
JADCa
Member
I think we are talking different things. My 3p can beat almost any porsche for a lap, and a plaid can get a top time for a lap, but both cars are too heavy to keep it up. Batteries are not the limit, the weight is. My 911 is striped to 2600 lbs and cooked the porsche brakes until I added dive planes and massive cooling ducts. No pads are going to keep a model S running 100% for more than a fast lap, same with tires.
I think VIR would be very close, but the Miata with 200hp would win a thirty minute race versus your 450 HP 3. You could easily get fastest lap, but tortoise and hare.
I think VIR would be very close, but the Miata with 200hp would win a thirty minute race versus your 450 HP 3. You could easily get fastest lap, but tortoise and hare.
Anything can be made to last on track with enough brake, cooling and tire.
The real question on the non-“performance” models is how good is the stability control and does it allow you to have fun with the car or are you just going to be sitting there watching the TC light flicker for 30 minutes.
The real question on the non-“performance” models is how good is the stability control and does it allow you to have fun with the car or are you just going to be sitting there watching the TC light flicker for 30 minutes.
I really don't understand this comment. I've run plenty of heavy cars on the track that had absolutely no issue with brake fade provided they had decent track pads (not even dedicated, I'm talking hybrid duty) and properly bled high temp fluid. That's without a BBK (albeit performance setups from the likes of M and Audi Sport GmbH). With regard to the batteries and power throttling on an EV, I'll absolutely agree, but weight has nothing to do with obtaining repeatable lap times if you're running even a decent brake setup.
To the OP, if you're only running 1-2 HPDEs a year, I would not let track performance sway a purchase decision. The cars drive and feel very different regardless of how they perform on the track. The M3P would definitely be the car I would want on a track given how much more nimble it feels, but the Model S is much better suited to highway cruising. One is a short wheelbase sport sedan with a bit of a weight problem, and the other is a long wheelbase GT car.
MasterC17
Active Member
Let's not even get started about how big and heavy the G8X M3 and M4 are. Ugh.
(Ugly too).
Hmm you have a point, I definitely have run HPDEs with hybrid track pads and good brake fluid and things have been fine without all the other dedicated equipment!
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