400A main panel recommendations?

[victir]

I’m getting my service upgraded to 200A and was thinking I should get a solar ready panel with a 400A busbar to futureproof against the 120% rule (as I’d have a 200A main breaker, so that would give plenty of capacity for the PV).

Also would like it have “room” on the line side between the meter for a line side tap in case I want that option in the future.

Anyone done this and have specific recommendations on what panel to get?

I’m in Oakland, CA with underground pg&e.

 

[GenSao]

Hello Victir. Welcome to the TMC.

Higher rated electrical panels can get very expensive. Consider doing a load calculation first. Include all potential electrical uses (EV, HVAC, water heater) and consider future growth. Compare your expected loads to the maximum solar (and batteries).

 

[holeydonut]

Hello Victir. Welcome to the TMC.

Higher rated electrical panels can get very expensive. Consider doing a load calculation first. Include all potential electrical uses (EV, HVAC, water heater) and consider future growth. Compare your expected loads to the maximum solar (and batteries).

Also, upgrading PG&E underground service is insanely expensive. They usually used the bare minimum conduit diameter, and having them re-trench to upgrade you to 400A may be like $10k+.

And check to see where your gas riser is haha. No likey for likey with your 400A upgrade.

 

[wwhitney]

PG&E will not run a 200A service to a 400A meter/main. And everything solar/powewrall related is easier if your service disconnect enclosure does not contain any branch breakers (distribution section).

So I would suggest selecting a 200A meter/main only (no distribution). Then install a 200A feeder to a panel with a 200A main breaker, with either a 225A or larger bus. With a physical layout where a large enclosure (like a Backup Gateway) could easily be installed in between the meter/main and the subpanel, intercepting the feeder.

A bus larger than 225A is probably unnecessary, as a 225A bus will allow you to interconnect up to 70A of inverters (after 125% factor) via the 120% rule, without downsizing the main breaker And if you need to install more, that could be done via a feeder interconnection by intercepting the feeder between the meter/main and the subpanel. That's the reason for putting a main breaker in the subpanel, to facilitate a future feeder interconnection.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

I’m getting my service upgraded to 200A and was thinking I should get a solar ready panel with a 400A busbar to futureproof against the 120% rule (as I’d have a 200A main breaker, so that would give plenty of capacity for the PV).

Also would like it have “room” on the line side between the meter for a line side tap in case I want that option in the future.

Anyone done this and have specific recommendations on what panel to get?

I’m in Oakland, CA with underground pg&e.

Wayne gave you good advice here. If you don't need 400A demand don't bother with a 400A service.

I would simply install a 200A Main breaker only combo panel. There is nothing that you would miss with that style panel. You could even install up to 200A of PV if the utility would approve it, and you could justify it.

With so much capacity, you have no need for a line side tap.

 

[victir]

Thanks, all, for your input. As usual, it's clear to me that I'm missing a lot of information even though I've been looking into this for a while. This is one of those things that drives me crazy as I'm sure there's a good way to do this that would keep things as future proof as possible but it's been very difficult to extract the right answer.

Yes, I have no need for 400A service. I've done load calculations and even with conservative estimates of what the future holds, there's no need for it.

Why wouldn't PG&E run 200A to a 400A panel? Don't they run 200A to 225A panels? As long as the main breaker is sized appropriately, 200A or less in my case, for the incoming service, why does it matter what the rating of the panel is?

I do see wanting more than 70A of PV. The way I understood it is that that would be my limit if going with a 225A busbar panel, and the only way around it is with a line side tap. I'm not sure I understand this "feeder interconnection" between the meter/main and subpanel. How does that avoid the 120% rule? Would there not still be a PV breaker on one of the panels?

I already have an indoor 200A panel set up that holds all the individual house breakers. Unfortunately this was done before I started getting involved otherwise I could have chosen something else like the SPAN panel. I thought I could get a 400A main panel, put a 200A main breaker on it, and then the PV would have 280A of room (400*1.2-200).

Is this what you all are suggesting?
200A/200A meter/main no distribution ------> 200A/225A subpanel

And with solar and batteries:
200A/200A meter/main no distribution ------> Backup Gateway ----> 200A/225A subpanel

Does the PV feed into the Backup gateway or does it go into the subpanel?

 

[wwhitney]

Why wouldn't PG&E run 200A to a 400A panel?

Dunno, that's their rule. They look at the rating of the piece of equipment where they terminate their conductors, and size the service to match. So a standalone 200A meter base (uncommon in CA) or a 200A meter/main gets a 200A service. But if you want to use a 400A meter/main (presumably has a different type of meter socket for a CL320), you get a 400A service and have to plan accordingly. (I'm assuming that they conflate 225A and 200A).

I'm not sure I understand this "feeder interconnection" between the meter/main and subpanel. How does that avoid the 120% rule? Would there not still be a PV breaker on one of the panels?

The 120% rule is one allowance for a busbar with has two or more supply connections. With the feeder interconnection you avoid that situation, as there's just a single feeder segment connecting to the load panel, so only one supply connection. The PV or PW breakers go in a separate generation panel that is connected to the feeder between the meter/main and the load panel. Or if you just have one inverter, you could use a fused disconnect instead of a generation panel.

I already have an indoor 200A panel set up that holds all the individual house breakers.

That's perfect. Just install a 200A meter/main with a 200A feeder to your indoor panel, planning things (space, cable length, etc) so you can intercept the 200A feeder for either a Backup Gateway (if you add PWs with or without PV), or splices for a feeder interconnection from a fused disconnect/generation panel. For the latter, if there's enough space in the 200A meter/main cabinet, that interception could be in the form of 3 port Polaris connectors in the meter/main cabinet. Or it could be a separate junction box.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[victir]

And here I thought I was clever for wanting a 400A panel...

Should the meter/main have a 225A busbar as well? Any specific recommendations for the meter/main that would allow for ? Something like this? Eaton 200 Amp BR Type Main Breaker Meter Breaker (without Distribution EUSERC) MBEB200BTS - The Home Depot

As for planning for space, are we just talking about physical space? The meter/main will be outside and there should be a few feet of wall space to the side of it available between it and the subpanel. What do you mean by "cable length"? Should there be some extra cable length provisioned somehow between the meter/main and subpanel to accomodate future splices?

Thanks so much for this advice. Pure gold.

 

[wwhitney]

Space = physical space, along the route that the feeder is going to run anyway.

As for cable length, if the Backup Gateway or future feeder splice is going to be near one end or the other, along the path the feeder is running, there's no issue. You just disconnect the end, reroute it to your new enclosure, it should be long enough, and you add a new short feeder segment back to the original feeder end.

The issue arises if the feeder run is , say, 40', and you want to put the new enclosure in the middle of that run. For that, if you know you are quite likely to be add PV or PW in the future, I think it would be worth just mounting a decent size box now, and looping the cable through it with a big internal loop or two, so that you have enough slack in the future.

Or if you want to put the new enclosure at the end of the run, past the route the cable is taking, you'd want to leave extra length at the end to reach the new enclosure.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[holeydonut]

And here I thought I was clever for wanting a 400A panel...

Should the meter/main have a 225A busbar as well? Any specific recommendations for the meter/main that would allow for ? Something like this? Eaton 200 Amp BR Type Main Breaker Meter Breaker (without Distribution EUSERC) MBEB200BTS - The Home Depot

As for planning for space, are we just talking about physical space? The meter/main will be outside and there should be a few feet of wall space to the side of it available between it and the subpanel. What do you mean by "cable length"? Should there be some extra cable length provisioned somehow between the meter/main and subpanel to accomodate future splices?

Thanks so much for this advice. Pure gold.

You haven't said this yet, but where is your PG&E gas riser in relation to all this stuff you're trying to do?

 

[victir]

Gas riser is 30+ feet away from the MSP, so good there.

My electrician is recommending the SquareD SC816F200PS -- Does this look reasonable? I'm not 100% sure this is a "no distribution" panel or not as recommended by Wayne above. I'm guessing it is a distribution panel since it says it has space for 16 circuits. Does it matter if it's a "no distribution" panel or not?

 

[Vines]

That panel might be used but it certainly has distribution.

It also has the ability to pass 200A out of it either through subfeed lugs or a 200A 4 pole breaker.

 

[victir]

It also has the ability to pass 200A out of it either through subfeed lugs or a 200A 4 pole breaker.

Is that good or just complicate things?

What's the advantage of a no distribution panel? I'm happy to push on my electrician to choose something else, but I don't like to do that to an expert unless I have a good reason...

Would this SC12L200S be the equivalent no distribution panel? It's marked as being not solar ready but maybe that doesn't make any difference in this type of panel?

 

[Vines]

Is that good or just complicate things?

What's the advantage of a no distribution panel? I'm happy to push on my electrician to choose something else, but I don't like to do that to an expert unless I have a good reason...

Would this SC12L200S be the equivalent no distribution panel? It's marked as being not solar ready but maybe that doesn't make any difference in this type of panel?

The advantage of a main breaker only is that its simple to understand for a code official, and should be cheaper

Adding a 200A 4 pole breaker to this at a cost of about $2-300 makes this identical in effect.

Likely a main breaker-only panel would be even cheaper, but in the land of covid, I can't be sure of that or even that it is available for you.

I can be 100% sure that we replace 3-4 200A MSP with distribution with 200A main breaker-only panels each month. We can certainly get them from our distributors.

 

[h2ofun]

The advantage of a main breaker only is that its simple to understand for a code official, and should be cheaper

Adding a 200A 4 pole breaker to this at a cost of about $2-300 makes this identical in effect.

Likely a main breaker-only panel would be even cheaper, but in the land of covid, I can't be sure of that or even that it is available for you.

I can be 100% sure that we replace 3-4 200A MSP with distribution with 200A main breaker-only panels each month. We can certainly get them from our distributors.

My install was so much easier since my pain panel just has 2 200 amp breakers. Then subpanels, generation subpanels, etc are all down stream

 

[victir]

Yeah, the SC12L200S is ~$300 more than the SC816F200PS even though it has no distribution, though I'm not sure if it's really an apples to apples comparison otherwise. But price isn't my top priority anyway here.

I'll ask my electrician if he can put in a no distribution panel instead and see what he says.

Are there any particular main breaker only panels that you can recommend?

 

[h2ofun]

Yeah, the SC12L200S is ~$300 more than the SC816F200PS even though it has no distribution, though I'm not sure if it's really an apples to apples comparison otherwise. But price isn't my top priority anyway here.

I'll ask my electrician if he can put in a no distribution panel instead and see what he says.

Are there any particular main breaker only panels that you can recommend?

IMO, forget the "cost!! Do it right the first time!!! Wish I had in a few cases but now impossible to go back and change things like wiring, panels, etc.

 

[victir]

Agreed! I don't care about the cost. Well, within reason, of course, but a few hundred bucks is fine by me. I also see it as an "insurance" cost. I'd much rather pay a bit more now and never need it, than save a few bucks and regret it later.

 

[wwhitney]

Vines is surely more familiar with Schneider's catalog, and I have no clue about current availability, but what about CM200S (plus QOM2200VH breaker), or CQRA200 (same thing but with the main breaker already installed)? That's what I would consider a meter/main/no distribution--it has no busbars. beyond what connects the meter socket to the main breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

Vines is surely more familiar with Schneider's catalog, and I have no clue about current availability, but what about CM200S (plus QOM2200VH breaker), or CQRA200 (same thing but with the main breaker already installed)? That's what I would consider a meter/main/no distribution--it has no busbars. beyond what connects the meter socket to the main breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

I don't do procurement at all, so I am not great with specific PN of services. Lately, we just buy whatever is available from our preferred distributors. For a while, Main breakers themselves were hard to get, and the only source was pulling them out of brand new subpanels that didn't need them, and swapping in lug kits for the subpanel.

If the MB-only panel is $300 more than one with distribution, you will spend around that for a 4 pole MB, so cost is a wash. You are actually better to go with the panel your electrician recommended and put the HOM2200BB on the distribution bus, using the 100% rule.

If you change your mind on the backup system later, or when 2020 NEC is in force, you can treat this panel as a traditional panel with distribution, or add loads to the MSP and use PCS control to ensure the busbar safety.