45 Minute quick charge?

[eledille]

rsquared99: I totally agree with you, quick charging is essential.

It seems to me that many believe that quick charging is not good for the batteries. As a general statement, that is just not true, it completely depends on the battery technology. Some battery types tolerate quick charging just fine, others do not. A Norwegian company that converts conventional cars to electric using Altairnano's cells have tested Altairnano's claims by cycling the cells ten thousand times, each cycle taking ten minutes. There was a capacity loss of a few percent. Those cells have other drawbacks (price, low energy density), but this certainly is possible.

I own a NiCd-powered 2001 model Think City, even those batteries can be quick charged in less than an hour with no negative effects.

Also, the charge current does not matter by itself, the charge time does, so a battery that is twice the size can absorb twice the charge current. That means that charging the Model S at 85 kW would be no harder on the battery than charging my Think City at 11 kW! The difference is that it is quite a bit harder to come by an 85 kW power supply.

The real problem is not the batteries, but access to sufficient amounts of power.

I live in Europe where the distributed power is 400 V three phase. Main circuit breakers in homes are often 63, 80 or even 125 A. 400 V three phase at 63 A is actually a standard power outlet type that gas stations, shopping centers etc already have. This delivers 44 kW, enough to charge the Model S in just over two hours.

Is anything similar available in the US?

 

[TEG]

Is anything similar available in the US?

Typical US homes have only 240V 100amp or 200amp service.
If you want 400+V at high amperage you generally need to look at industrial locations.

Typical US homes have "split phase", but most commercial/industrial have 3-phase for industrial equipment.

The split-phase at home offers 240V for large appliances, and then two 120V splits for most household devices.
With commercial locations they end up with only 208V single phase because of the way they pull from the 3-phase supply.

Most US based EV chargers expect to be able to take 208V or 240V so they can work at commercial locations or at home. I haven't really seen any production charge equipment designed to connect directly to all 3 phases of a commercial supply.

 

[eledille]

What I'm trying to figure out is how expensive quick charging stations will be (and thereby how common they will be), and whether the same onboard charger might be used for both Europe and the US. If the onboard charger could accept high voltage three phase power, one would not have to do any conversion in the charging stations, which would reduce their cost dramatically.

I contacted Tesla about support for 400 V three phase a couple of weeks ago, and they informed me that they are looking into solutions for the Roadster that will convert 400 V 3P to 240 V single phase using power electronics. This would allow the Roadster to charge optimally at 24 A from the 400 V supply. They also promised me support for 400 V 3P for Model S, likely up to 63 A, without any heavy external equipment.

I have surfed a bit more, it seems that 480 V three phase is not that uncommon in the US - I'm sure outlets are hard to come by, but the wires must be present in a lot of places. 480 is not that different from 440, which is the upper end of the acceptable range in Europe.

Onboard support for 400 V would probably also be able to accept 480 V, so the same equipment would likely be usable in Europe and the US.

 

[TEG]

Rapid Charging Electric Cars: How Fast, How Soon?

 

[TEG]

Tesla: Model S to have fast-charging battery | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews

 

[dpeilow]

I contacted Tesla about support for 400 V three phase a couple of weeks ago, and they informed me that they are looking into solutions for the Roadster that will convert 400 V 3P to 240 V single phase using power electronics. This would allow the Roadster to charge optimally at 24 A from the 400 V supply. They also promised me support for 400 V 3P for Model S, likely up to 63 A, without any heavy external equipment.

Glad someone was listening then. :wink:

 

[eledille]

TEG: Thank you, those articles make it clear that we're talking about an onboard charger, not Tesla-specific charging stations. I've read many articles that don't make this clear, and there is a world of difference.

Heh, heh - this is excellent. The same onboard charger will support 120, 208, 230 and 240 V single phase and 400 and 480 V three phase.

dpeilow: Right

Correction: I first asked about this early this summer (not about the Roadster, though), but I didn't get any answers. Then I asked their Scandinavian representative a couple of weeks ago.

 

[LogicWorks]

I would like to say that the 45 minute recharge is not exactly unrealistic since 480 volt 3-phase is available up to 3000 Amp service. There are industrial 3-phase AC induction motors up to 1000 horsepower that are 480 volt 3-phase.

 

[eledille]

I think they implied that the 300 mile range would use a different/newer cell chemistry. (possibly much more expensive?)

I thought it was just the next revision of the same cells they already use?

 

[dpeilow]

Please don't reply to spammers...

 

[edo]

I would like to say that the 45 minute recharge is not exactly unrealistic since 480 volt 3-phase is available up to 3000 Amp service. There are industrial 3-phase AC induction motors up to 1000 horsepower that are 480 volt 3-phase.

One complication is that these motors are hard wired, and an automobile will have to be unplugable. I'm trying to remember if I've seen 1000A per pin connectors anywhere...

 

[dpeilow]

I'm trying to remember if I've seen 1000A per pin connectors anywhere...

Amphe-Power

The Amphe-Power® Series consists of three of the time-tested and reliable families of Amphenol Industrial Connectors, all of which are MIL-5015 styles, medium to heavy duty cylindricals. These series, enhanced with RADSOK® sockets, can now handle up to 50% higher amperages. Current Amphe-Power® product lines support from 50A to 1000A continuous duty.

 

[Eberhard]

I think quick-charge will be DC charge from external charger with about 100kW (500V 200A) , the internal charger will handle max 44kW, more likely are 22kW in Europe with 3 Phases (400V 32A or 64A), America single phase (480V 80A) indented for home charge.

 

[AndrewBissell]

That would be a dream scenario!

Internal charger accepts a Mennekes 3-phase cable up to 63A 3-phase = 43kW.

DC fast charge port accepts up to 600V, 200A (new J1772 DC proposal) > 200kW.

Same J1772 port also accepts single phase to the internal charger up to 80A = 19.2kW.

It could be done - I live in hope. If so Tesla proves it's superiority in understanding the need for speed - speed of charging in this case.

Backed up by rapid battery swap (even if only at the Tesla Stores) to rent a 300 mile pack when needed, and we are there.

Heaven! Come on Tesla - you can do this.

Caveat: That's where we want to be on the car side. Sufficient well placed fast chargers need to be in place - which means moving from the current obsession with shopping malls to locations along trunk routes, highways, autobahns, motorways, etc.

 

[dpeilow]

Andrew, you forgot to put the CHAdeMO port on there too. Cover all bases.

Base could be J1772 DC or Mennekes, with CHAdeMO as an optional extra.

 

[AndrewBissell]

Hi David - I didn't forget - I just think that CHAdeMO could be superceded rapidly by the J1772 DC standard. Really on no evidential basis - but I want 200kW!

 

[jkirkebo]

That would be a dream scenario!

Internal charger accepts a Mennekes 3-phase cable up to 63A 3-phase = 43kW.

DC fast charge port accepts up to 600V, 200A (new J1772 DC proposal) > 200kW.

Same J1772 port also accepts single phase to the internal charger up to 80A = 19.2kW.

It could be done - I live in hope. If so Tesla proves it's superiority in understanding the need for speed - speed of charging in this case.


Backed up by rapid battery swap (even if only at the Tesla Stores) to rent a 300 mile pack when needed, and we are there.

Heaven! Come on Tesla - you can do this.

Caveat: That's where we want to be on the car side. Sufficient well placed fast chargers need to be in place - which means moving from the current obsession with shopping malls to locations along trunk routes, highways, autobahns, motorways, etc.

600V 200A would be 120kW, not >200KW. Still, higher voltage than the battery pack will not be of any help so if the battery pack is 450V then you get 90kW with 200A and even CHAdeMO supports this even though existing chargers stop at 125A (which would be 56kW with a 450V pack).

 

[theBike45]

As for Tesla dealers swapping in a new 300mile battery pack for rent, that's not a bad idea, but you'll need
either a lot more Tesla dealerships, or an agreement by an existing auto repair (or dealer network) to
do the work and store your battery pack until you return their rental unit. To my mind, a 300 mile battery
pack and 45 to 60 minute recharge is sufficient for any trip. A mid-day recharge during lunch break will not
inconvenience any travellers except those hyperactive types who don't want to stop enroute. One problem here
may be the future - if batteries drop way down in price per kWhr because of some new advanced technology,
that swap business will become obsolete.
As for public charging stations, by far the best solution would be to use one or more islands of
existing gas stations, but the recharge times can't be measured in hours, but minutes for this to work.
They are ideally suited for refueling motor vehicles, because that's exactly what they do, right? (no surprise)
And for those wild-eyed conspiracy nutballs, no petroleum company these day would attempt to prevent any
of their stations from refueling electricity because : 1) that would not legally be possible, since
most gas stations are independently owned; 2) no petroleum company could withstand public outrage if
they chose to do so (and it would be totally impossible to keep anything like this secret).
You can rest assured that the charging apparatus will be there when the demand is there. A free market NEVER
overlooks a way to make money by satisfying public demand. Just look at Tesla and all the other tiny EV startups.

 

[SByer]

It would be far better to start reclaiming the prime real-estate that gas stations sit on for things that are more productive and people friendly. Fast charging stations don't take a lot of space, and indeed are better served by being placed at more natural stopping places. The need for fast charging should also be extremely rare - unlike gas cars which need to get 100% of their fuel from stations, EVs should need to get less than 1% of their charge from fast charge stations.

Also, I'd never want to park my EV at a stinky, dirty gas station for a fast charge. Eew.

 

[AndrewBissell]

600V 200A would be 120kW, not >200KW. Still, higher voltage than the battery pack will not be of any help so if the battery pack is 450V then you get 90kW with 200A and even CHAdeMO supports this even though existing chargers stop at 125A (which would be 56kW with a 450V pack).

I got my multiplication wrong! However the point really is that Tesla seem to have promised 45 minute recharge of Model S. I always assumed they meant "for the 160 mile pack". Recently I have come to believe they mean "whichever pack - 160, 230, 300."

To do that they need about 120kW max, assuming it's a 90kWh pack for 300 miles (various recent sources).

I may be wrong. We'll see.