4680 Cathode & Anode discussion for investors

[Buckminster]

Thread for chemistry and the impact on range, cost etc.

Some details here:
Tesla unveils battery puzzle pieces of smart material science, design, and manufacturing innovation - Electrek
4680 cell design, chassis integration & factory discussion for investors
Mechanical discussion here pls:
4680 cell design, chassis integration & factory discussion for investors

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Aren't there more technical threads/forums for anode discussion?

 

[Buckminster]

From Battery Day thread:

Slightly updated list of rumours:

Cathode
Novonix DPMG granules
Dry electrode from Maxwell - allows thicker cathode
Single crystal cathode (Dahn)
Cobalt free
Sila Transition metal free
SilLion nickel rich NMC

Anode
Novonix DPMG graphite granules
Dry electrode from Maxwell
SilLion high loading Silicon
Dahn's Anode free (not coated) and Lithium metal cathode
Silicon nanowires

Manufacture
Hibar
Cell to pack
4070 size (or bigger)
Tesla mining
Tabless electrode
Plate cooling
Transformation of core structural design of the vehicle (giga casting? heat sink? cell to chassis?)

Anode
Novonix DPMG graphite granules
Dry electrode from Maxwell
SilLion high loading Silicon
Dahn's Anode free (not coated) and Lithium metal cathode
Silicon nanowires

Solution is taking pure Silicon (no graphite) coated in polymer and elastic binder to make a powder that this then coated onto the copper foil using Maxwell process. Elasticity required because the Silicon expands.

Cathode
Novonix DPMG granules
Dry electrode from Maxwell - allows thicker cathode?
Single crystal cathode (Dahn)
Cobalt free
Sila Transition metal free
SilLion nickel rich NMC

Solution is taking (Lithium and high nickel content with novel coatings and dopants) powder and coating onto the foil (made of aluminium) using Maxwell process.

Manufacture
Hibar
Cell to pack - In fact cell to structure
4070 size (or bigger) - 4680
Tesla mining
Tabless electrode
Plate cooling
Transformation of core structural design of the vehicle (giga casting? heat sink? cell to chassis?)

 

[Buckminster]

We know this to be true for the DBE process from information previously disclosed by Maxwell Technologies. The key performance benefit is the ability to create thicker electrode layers with the same ion conductivity as those achieved with the existing wet slurry process.

Maxwell Technology already identified a 25% energy density improvement (from 250 wh/kg to 300 wh/kg) just with the 1st gen of their DBE process (this is Maxwell's Slide 10 from the Needham Conference, Jan 2019):

View attachment 592237

Tesla worked with Maxwell for years verifying the DBE process before buying the company. IMHO, "calendaring" (essentially what the DBE process does) isn't that hard (click image below to download the PDF from PowerSourceConference.com):



Imma call it now: Elon is sandbagging it. Telsa will dominate batteries.

Cheers!

 

[Buckminster]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1310003337752801280
Suppliers. We’re only doing high energy nickel ourselves, at least for now. Also, maybe the presentation wasn’t clear that we’ve actually had our cells in packs driving cars for several months. Prototypes are trivial, volume production is hard.

 

[Buckminster]

Wait. Seriously lost here. So they are going to use suppliers for all HIGH volume cars and battery storage in the future? Then what the heck is 3twh for? How many Semis and cybertrucks is he making?

Or was this just anti osbourning talk and "for now" is code word for "Semi/Plaid/Cybertrucks/roadsters" in the immediate future?

With the slides where they predicted material shortage leads to separating different battery materials, I assumed raw materials couldn't keep up with their 7x increase in speed so they had to diversity raw materials of the 4680 for super high volume cars like the 25k version. How can he be confident that their highest volume car Panasonic can keep up? Also I thought the only reason why the 25k version even exist is because how their own batteries will be half the price with more range?

I've been thinking a bit about how easily it will be to modify 2170 designs to use 4680, with respect to pack size and vehicle design.

I do not think my drawing below was a coincidence and probably influenced the choice of 46mm.

View attachment 592647

Edit: just to be clear, I don't think they are trying to do this:

View attachment 592654

Roadrunner is building high nickel cells only for now:

Whole Mars Catalog @WholeMarsBlog · 1h
Replying to @elonmusk

"elon, are you guys making 4680 cells with three different cathodes? or when you talked about a diversified approach were you talking about your external suppliers?"

Elon Musk @elonmusk · 1h

"Suppliers. We’re only doing high energy nickel ourselves, at least for now. Also, maybe the presentation wasn’t clear that we’ve actually had our cells in packs driving cars for several months. Prototypes are trivial, volume production is hard."​

Cheers!

Yes, and I think “for now” means until Giga Berlin is operating. I think Giga Berlin will make 4680 cells with nickel manganese cathode based on this slide,
View attachment 592687
and Elon’s Berlin interview (6:10) where he implies Berlin Model Y will use the new 4680 structural pack.

Thanks Elon. I have been arguing about this on Twitter

https://twitter.com/s_padival/status/1309055897919016962?s=21
View attachment 592688

Further, I don’t think suppliers will switch over to the new format. It just doesn’t make business sense. Pana only recently started making a profit on their multi billion $ Giga 1 investment. Why would they spend capex now only to see Tesla making all of their own cells in a couple of years time.

Voicing this because I think it is important for investors to set their expectations clearly. Otherwise, I would never discuss these things in public and be seen as a Debbie Downer.

So is cell to structure going to be done with supplier cells? Obviously he list the Model Y on this slide being batteries from panasonic from his recent tweet, but he also alluded to cell to structure for Berlin's Model Y so wtf. His tweets man, so confusing.

 

[Buckminster]

https://twitter.com/ReflexFunds/status/1313964614384865298

 

[Buckminster]

 

[uujjj2]

Over time, Tesla will converge to the optimal cell form factor, which of course is the 69420.

 

[Buckminster]

LIPO and LiPo usually refers to Lithium Polymer, LFP or LiFe is used for LiFePO4.

 

[mikevbf]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1310003337752801280
Suppliers. We’re only doing high energy nickel ourselves, at least for now. Also, maybe the presentation wasn’t clear that we’ve actually had our cells in packs driving cars for several months. Prototypes are trivial, volume production is hard.

It's important for anyone looking at lithium supply investments, to know the high nickel chemistry requires lithium hydroxide not carbonate. Lithium carbonate can be further refined to hydroxide, but it is almost always a lot simpler, less energy intensive and cheaper to go straight to hydroxide. As such it is also important to know only certain lithium deposits lend themselves well to going straight to hydroxide . Note: this is an area I have been researching the last couple weeks, but am by no means an expert. If there is an expert on this forum, please do correct me.

 

[Buckminster]

Jordan thinks Tesla could mix graphite with Silicon on the anode. Why not go with 100% Silicon but then only use a fraction of it's capacity and therefore much reduced expansion problems?

Also, Jordan thinks that the charging time could be halved!

 

[Buckminster]

Elon talks her at the 12 min mark of an almost pure nickel anode. Can anyone explain? Did he mean Cathode? Surely the Cathode is also laden with a lot of Lithium.

He goes onto talk about a high Silicon anode which is what I expect.

 

[Buckminster]

 

[Buckminster]

Faster charging on 4680s but most likely on 2070s soon:

 

[Buckminster]

We don't know, but a literal reading of battery day is silicon with no graphite or a lot less graphite.

I've been thinking for somsometime that people are underestimating the importance of the silicon anode, specifically in terms of higher energy density and faster charging.

The focus on costs at Battery Day meant Tesla didn't need to detail specs and performance.

 

[MC3OZ]

Tesla isn't the only one with a pure silicon Anode:-

I'm slightly swayed by some of his arguments, the engineering and battery talent working for the company would be worth acquiring.

The Silicon Anode process is different, for such a key component, 2 solutions, are better than one.

But Tesla could also license the ENEVATE tech as others are doing, licensing would be cheaper than an acquisition, before considering an acquisition, make sure it works, and is better than what Tesla already has...

The video is also a useful recap on the benefits of pure silicon.

One thought I do have is Tesla's current solution might exceed 1,000 cycles, if Tesla already has a longer lasting battery, the ENEVATE solution is not so useful.

 

[Buckminster]

A little news on Nano One: Nano One Enters into a Cathode Evaluation Agreement



There are only three companies that meet those criteria that I am aware of:

• Ford
• GM
• Tesla

Ford: Hasn't shown any interest in getting in to batteries.
GM: Partnered with LG, so maybe but doesn't seem likely.
That leaves: Tesla... But they have been working on their own cathode...

 

[Buckminster]

 

[Buckminster]