4680 cell design, chassis integration & factory discussion for investors

[Daniel in SD]

The ribs on top were always there. Check out the 4680 and 2170 Y variants.
Structural removes ribs from inside or under the pack.

4680 Y pack has ribs under the front seats but does not have ribs in the footwell.
2170 pack doesn’t have external ribs at all.
It will be interesting to see if the internals of the Cybertruck pack are less structural than the 4680 Y.

 

[mongo]

4680 Y pack has ribs under the front seats but does not have ribs in the footwell.
2170 pack doesn’t have external ribs at all.
It will be interesting to see if the internals of the Cybertruck pack are less structural than the 4680 Y.

The car has the ribs. In the 2170 they are part of the floor. In the 4680, they are part of the floor which is also the pack lid.
Tesla Model Y Structural Battery Pack: What We Know (And Don't Know)

 

[Daniel in SD]

The car has the ribs. In the 2170 they are part of the floor. In the 4680, they are part of the floor which is also the pack lid.
Tesla Model Y Structural Battery Pack: What We Know (And Don't Know)

Yeah that’s my point. It doesn’t look like they’re getting any extra space by using a structural pack because much of the structure isn’t inside the pack.
This was the plan:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1313869332003401728

 

[Buckminster]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775245471868473551

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775245471868473551

Plenty of room for taller cells. Wen 46140? How tall can it go and have low enough resistance collecting from bottom of the cell?

500 miles easy. Game changer. This is mind blowing that they have so much room. My mind is blown.

 

[MC3OZ]

Plenty of room for taller cells. Wen 46140? How tall can it go and have low enough resistance collecting from bottom of the cell?

500 miles easy. Game changer. This is mind blowing that they have so much room. My mind is blown.

Traditional jelly-rolls only had 1-2 tabs and were quite long...

Samsung SDI to produce 46120 cells for BMW in Goed | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

I think I remember some other manufacturer planning to use 46120 cells.

I have a long standing hunch that that size cell will work well for the new Roadster...

I don't like the idea of double-stacked, IMO taller or forget it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Traditional jelly-rolls only had 1-2 tabs and were quite long...

Samsung SDI to produce 46120 cells for BMW in Goed | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

I think I remember some other manufacturer planning to use 46120 cells.

I have a long standing hunch that that size cell will work well for the new Roadster...

I don't like the idea of double-stacked, IMO taller or forget it.

Given Tesla’s difficulties with the 4680, at least 46120 or 46140 should not pose significant technical challenges. Tesla just literally makes the jelly roll element a bit wider. Maybe I oversimplify.

At least we don’t have to worry about the impact of the height on the strength of the “structural” pack since the cells don’t seem to be particularly structural. Looks like a strong one-third-empty box.

 

[mongo]

Given Tesla’s difficulties with the 4680, at least 46120 or 46140 should not pose significant technical challenges. Tesla just literally makes the jelly roll element a bit wider. Maybe I oversimplify.

At least we don’t have to worry about the impact of the height on the strength of the “structural” pack since the cells don’t seem to be particularly structural. Looks like a strong one-third-empty box.

Those longitudinals may not be structural...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Those longitudinals may not be structural...

Perhaps not! Fortunately it is a very strong box.

 

[MP3Mike]

At least we don’t have to worry about the impact of the height on the strength of the “structural” pack since the cells don’t seem to be particularly structural. Looks like a strong one-third-empty box.

TheLimitingFactor seems to think they are still structural:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775494185405079767

 

[mongo]

TheLimitingFactor seems to think they are still structural:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775494185405079767

I took "partly" as not really, but it looks like they do stiffen the bottom.
Note that the pack is upside-down in the Munro shots so all that gap is crush zone/ poor insulation, no vent pieces like Model Y.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That's a lot of extra room. That plus all the extra room on top of the pack makes me think the original plan was to double stack. I can't think of another plausible way they could have gotten 500mi of range.
I bet there will be a 500mi range version in the future once demand declines.

I suppose it's also possible they wanted a lot of crumple room on the bottom for off-road durability.

 

[mongo]

That's a lot of extra room. That plus all the extra room on top of the pack makes me think the original plan was to double stack. I can't think of another plausible way they could have gotten 500mi of range.
I bet there will be a 500mi range version in the future once demand declines.

By extra room on top, do you mean the volume currently outside the pack? Or did I miss some interior top images?

 

[Daniel in SD]

By extra room on top, do you mean the volume currently outside the pack? Or did I miss some interior top images?

Yeah, if they do a more structural pack they could get rid of the cross beams and make the pack thicker.

Wild that the seat risers are machined aluminum. I wonder if that will survive the inevitable cost cutting.

 

[MP3Mike]

Wild that the seat risers are machined aluminum. I wonder if that will survive the inevitable cost cutting.

I thought Munro said that they were cast... (Which I think you can tell from the view of the one on the far side.)

 

[mongo]

Yeah, if they do a more structural pack they could get rid of the cross beams and make the pack thicker.

View attachment 1035111
Wild that the seat risers are machined aluminum. I wonder if that will survive the inevitable cost cutting.

Those risers are preproduction. Real ones are cast.

The crossrails and foam protect the pack lid. Pack can't handle point loads and internal cell layout can't accommodate transverse stringers. Plus, the lid can't reliably react crash loads (tension/ peel stength) so the cross members are load and safety.

 

[mongo]

I thought Munro said that they were cast... (Which I think you can tell from the view of the one on the far side.)

Yeah, service manual was made with pre-production units (and some poorly selected image reuse).

 

[kpanda17]

anyone have the 4680 gen path layout, as we're in gen 2 at this time at 955 (90% nickel, 5% lith, 5% cobalt)
my understanding gen 3a will be hybrid dry cell with a 973 chem mix due this fall, +10% range, AWD 380-400 (goal increase range, decrease cobalt)
think ext pack will be the gen 3a, will be interesting if they increase the range we were told by +10% or not
gen 3b final, dry cell design, same chem and another +10%, Spr-Summer 2025, AWD 420-440
whats makes a gen 4 4680?

not a batt expert, all critique is invited

 

[mongo]

anyone have the 4680 gen path layout, as we're in gen 2 at this time at 955 (90% nickel, 5% lith, 5% cobalt)
my understanding gen 3a will be hybrid dry cell with a 973 chem mix due this fall, +10% range, AWD 380-400 (goal increase range, decrease cobalt)
think ext pack will be the gen 3a, will be interesting if they increase the range we were told by +10% or not
gen 3b final, dry cell design, same chem and another +10%, Spr-Summer 2025, AWD 420-440
whats makes a gen 4 4680?

not a batt expert, all critique is invited

By dry cell, do you mean the dry battery electrode (DBE) process? The cell still uses electrolyte.
Anode was DBE in early leaked cells, I think cathode is DBE now also (or will be after that building is completed). Not that DBE has a huge impact on energy.

Silicon will result in an improvement in energy density.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I suppose it's also possible they wanted a lot of crumple room on the bottom for off-road durability.

No, that plate has to be super strong so you can slam the truck onto anything. It is like a rock slider.

Always wondered how they would do this. Obviously you aren’t going to damage your battery by high centering on a rock or something. Tesla would cover that with a robust vehicle like this.